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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2016
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    and there's "had next to nothing to do with the score". That latter point is something new (and unwelcome), if you ask me. This is John Ottman level stuff...


    Again... nothing new.

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2016
    I've no idea whether this is true of Beltrami and Die Hard but it's incredibly common. Given how Beltrami-ish the score is, it's inconceivable that he wasn't there directing traffic very carefully.
  1. Either that or what we think of as "Beltrami-ish" never existed and has in fact been "Roberts-ish/Trumpp-ish" all along. dizzy

    Ottman at least has the excuse of also being an editor. And again, incredibly common? Getting a bit of help here and there is incredibly common. For the only listed composer to have contributed two cues...that strikes me as beyond the pale.
  2. Considering the amount of - sometimes rather complex - music that is being written in the course of, what?, six weeks?, it was always clear for me that this is a collaborative process. (That has never been a secret anyway.)

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  3. Then why can't we indicate that on the album? "Music by Marco Beltrami, Marcus Trumpp and Brandon Roberts". Preferably with a breakdown of who contributed to what cues in the liner notes.

    Hell, if Beltrami really only did two cues I don't even feel comfortable putting him on the album cover.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2016
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    Either that or what we think of as "Beltrami-ish" never existed and has in fact been "Roberts-ish/Trumpp-ish" all along. dizzy

    Ottman at least has the excuse of also being an editor. And again, incredibly common? Getting a bit of help here and there is incredibly common. For the only listed composer to have contributed two cues...that strikes me as beyond the pale.


    But that's clearly not true, you can tell by listening to it that Beltrami was heavily involved in a lot more than two cues, even if he didn't write every note of them. One of the highest-profile film composers there has ever been often doesn't directly write any cues at all, but it's still right that he gets the credit because they are very much his creations, his ideas. The "composers" who don't do anything are the ones whose scores sound completely different from each other, or which change character completely when they change their "orchestrator".

    At the end of the day... either the music's good or it isn't. Does any of this stuff actually matter? Is anyone going to enjoy music less if they find out the person they thought wrote it actually had a couple of ghostwriters?
  4. I think orchestrators are terrific people. They are like chameleons, getting in tune with any composer they write with. Film music would not be possible without them. Often the orchestrator will be a bit of a co-composer. But yes, two cues? That would stretch it.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  5. Southall wrote
    At the end of the day... either the music's good or it isn't. Does any of this stuff actually matter? Is anyone going to enjoy music less if they find out the person they thought wrote it actually had a couple of ghostwriters?

    This is a fair point and I don't think any less of the score itself for it. But I do find it somewhat disconcerting when it's done to this degree. It's not so much the collaboration that bothers me, but the fact that it's not made clear who was involved in what. I have a bit of a hangup about knowing who to thank for the music I like. If indeed Beltrami's non-involvement was to the degree that this fellow indicates, then as far as I'm concerned A Good Day to Die Hard is now a Roberts/Trumpp score with a few Beltrami guest appearances...no different in my mind to scores that are "theme by X, music by Y", except that what Beltrami contributed to the score isn't even a theme!

    Of course, maybe the guy is wrong and Beltrami did have a more hands-on approach than the cue sheet indicates. Hard to know unless you were a fly on that wall. But that's just what frustrates me - these days, you simply have no guarantee that the music you're listening to is by who the album cover says it's by.
  6. I suspect there is a little more to it. Taking it as true, I would think Beltrami does at least look over the scores and make suggestions and give approval; it is his name and contiued employment on the line, after all.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2016
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    Of course, maybe the guy is wrong and Beltrami did have a more hands-on approach than the cue sheet indicates. Hard to know unless you were a fly on that wall. But that's just what frustrates me - these days, you simply have no guarantee that the music you're listening to is by who the album cover says it's by.


    I don't know - I only have hearsay to go on - but I doubt it's any worse "these days" than it ever was. I was told Alfred Newman had a vast army of ghostwriters helping him write twelve thousand scores a year, I think his brother Lionel actually won an Oscar for a score he didn't compose a note of. The silver age greats Goldsmith and Williams are known to have had help from time to time, if the gossip is true then the reason Horner was able to write so many scores in his more prolific years was that he didn't actually write some of them, etc.
  7. Goldsmith didn't always do the source music. Aside from AF1, which was a last-minute effort and he was busy, I only recall certain other instances where he had a little help simply because of problems in life.

    Unless I am forgetting something.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2016
    There were others, for reasons of time pressure, which is the usual reason when the best of them do it.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2016
    At the very least, the moments best remembered in scores from high profile composers are I suspect more often than not written by them. I highly doubt there's a Williams ghostwriter who came up with Yoda's theme (to pick but one example).
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2016
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2016
    Meh! More internet rubbish from someone with an axe to grind (referring to the quoted persons earlier). Beltrami has one of the most unique voices out there, and he's pretty detailed even when dealing with orchestrators (I know, because one of his former collaborators, Bill Boston, told me this himself when he hooked up in Oslo years ago).

    Not denying that there might be a "ghost cue" or two, but no more than normal, and certainly not enough to rob him of the ownership of the music.
    I am extremely serious.
  8. I mean I don't think Jerry pulled what some composers are doing, having help all the time, with many cues, on multiple scores. I trhink he was understandably way too proud to not try his best to do his job to the fullest.


    Steven has reminded...

    Who was that nut job a year or two or three ago (I tried searching for it, but don't have enough info' to find it) that claimed he had actually written most of Williams' music?
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
  9. Thor wrote
    Meh! More internet rubbish from someone with an axe to grind (referring to the quoted persons earlier). Beltrami has one of the most unique voices out there, and he's pretty detailed even when dealing with orchestrators (I know, because one of his former collaborators, Bill Boston, told me this himself when he hooked up in Oslo years ago).

    How is that any different to what this German guy is claiming?

    Thor wrote
    Not denying that there might be a "ghost cue" or two, but no more than normal, and certainly not enough to rob him of the ownership of the music.

    Once again (for, what, the fifth time????) I must point out the difference between "a ghost cue or two" and "everything but two cues".
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2016 edited
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    How is that any different to what this German guy is claiming?


    As he has no source for his accusations and I have no recording of my conversations with Bill, I guess it's word against word. But at least I, personally, know that he's just spewing out rubbish.

    You can choose who you're going to believe.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeFeb 29th 2016
  10. A few word on Gods of Egypt.
    www.synchrotones.wordpress.com | www.synchrotones.co.uk | @Synchrotones | facebook | soundcloud | youtube
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2016
    I wrote 90% of Gods Of Egypt. Beltrami only did a couple of cues.

    wink
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2016
    I knew it! shocked
  11. My review of the score for GODS OF EGYPT, for anyone who's interested:

    https://moviemusicuk.us/2016/04/12/gods … -beltrami/

    Jon
  12. Review of Gods of Egypt
    waaaaaahhhhhhhh!!! Where's my nut? arrrghhhhhhh
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2016
  13. Southall wrote
    Ben-Hur:

    http://www.movie-wave.net/ben-hur/


    ... and starring Jack Huston as Charlton Heston


    Ha! Is that a Freudian slip or cunning sarcasm?
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2016
    The latter, though probably not that cunning.
  14. movie-wave.net:
    [...] Miklós Rózsa, who wrote what is almost universally considered to be one of the greatest film scores of all for the 1959 version.


    I agree, Rózsa wrote the best score for the 1959 version. All those other composers efforts for the 1959 version -- poppycock!

    tongue
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
  15. rolleyes
  16. Edmund Meinerts wrote
    rolleyes


    Well, double rolleyes rolleyes on you.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.