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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2009
    franz_conrad wrote
    I can't take it for the sake of nothing. (I count Miller's abundance of masculine fantasies as 'nothing' in this case.)


    It's pretty much the same reason 300 ultimately fell flat, isn't it?
    I understand what Miller is trying to do...but it's -to my mind- simply not relevant any more.
    We're pas the age of the overly testosteroned hero in the Eastwood/Schwartzenegger/Lundgren style, and he has served his purpose.

    Miller today is not doing much more than restylize that mythical figure...and it falls flat.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  1. You don't like Seven Martijn? I think 14 years after its initial release it still hasn't lost any of its power and the ending is a stunner. It's a very dark film, I agree, but one that packs a serious wallop in the stomach department and leaves you very uneasy after each viewing. I mean the whole finale is vomit-inducing, but in the sense that it leaves you totally mortified, so I mean that in a good way. It was an incredibly bleak, masterful look at how an insane yet brilliant serial murderer would supposedly work. If anything, nothing could prepare you for how the script and director would toy with your intestinal workings and keep you fooled until the end. For that alone I think Seven deserves all the praise.

    Sin City I found awesome too, but only for the two first segments, During the final act of the film, my attention span began to slip a little, to the point I get a little bored. I don't find it nearly as captivating as the rest of the film. But overall it's still one heck of a stylized work of art.
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2009
    No, I don't like it.
    It's a tale of unremitting darkness, pointless vileness and relentless despair without any hope, life lesson, perspective change or anything else that actually contributes.
    It's truly the darkest side of humanity wrapped as entertainment, and what I find most spurious about it is that -compared to other "sick entertainment" films like the Saw ones- this one pretends to offer more (by style and choice of actors), while it really doesn't.
    It's just a shockschlock like so may others, but wrapped up more prettily.

    When watching films I only ever ask one question: "what do I take away from it?"
    I the best cases it's a new look on certain aspects of life, something to make me think, or an insight into beauty. In the worst cases it's "merely" mindless entertainment (which is absolutely fine!).

    With Se7en the answer was "absolutely NOTHING".
    It's one of the most pointless films ever made, contributing nothing that is in any way worthwhile. This film did not need to be made.

    DreamTheater wrote
    It's a very dark film, I agree, but one that packs a serious wallop in the stomach department and leaves you very uneasy after each viewing. I mean the whole finale is vomit-inducing, but in the sense that it leaves you totally mortified, so I mean that in a good way. It was an incredibly bleak, masterful look at how an insane yet brilliant serial murderer would supposedly work.


    You have outlined exactly all the reasons I detest this film: dark, uneasy, vomit-inducing, bleak, et cetera, without any point. Any such serial killer does not exist, not has existed. There are enough deeply disturbing stories out there, some of which are very much worth telling, and I don't mind all the qualifications above...as long as they have a point.
    I had all the same reactions with -for instance- Schindler's List (the shower scene being probably the darkest scene I have ever seen). But it made sense there: the very fact that we felt this way said something about our humanity and how it was lost in those days.

    In Se7en it is solely linked to a fictitional serial killer.
    Someone the script writers made up with the express purpose (and no other) to make us feel this way.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  2. But Seven was just a thriller, it didn't want to be anymore than that. A shocking one at that, it's not something we will ever see or have to endure during our lifetime, so in that respect Seven is hardly an important film like Schindler's List was, but for providing thrills and atmosphere, what it set out to do, it was more than able to bring those accross. Seven shouldn't give us any wise pointers about life or anything, or give us an answer to our worst fears and deepest questions. It was just a thriller about a serial murderer and two cops trying to capture him. It's mostly the dynamic between Pitt and Freeman that interests me anyway and how they use their own determination and skills to get the job done. No need to over-analyze it anymore than needed. Some films are made to entertain you, others to shock you. And Seven is an incredibly capable shocker. But I respect your feelings about it too.
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2009
    Like I said, "mindless entertainment" is fine as well. Not every movie has to be deep and meaningful.
    And thrillers are meant to provide thrills.

    However, I was not thrilled, nor entertained. The bleakness and sheer meanness of spirit in Se7en is not balanced by anything.
    It's not entertaining (it far too nasty for that), AND it doesn't tell us anything (new).
    If it's just about the interaction between Freeman and Pitt, why choose this vehicle?
    Any such young cop-old cop story could have (and HAS) been told a thousand times more intensely and entertainingly.

    Now it's just -like I said before- a pretty bow to hide a nasty, nasty, nasty present.
    And I agree this is a capable shocker.
    That's why I rate it alongside such other luminaries of the genre like Saw and Hostel.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  3. Gotcha mate, not let's have a rest, why don't we? beer sleep

    No problem in having opposite opinions. wink
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2009
    But you're wrong.
    YOU'RE WRONG!

    And I will KEEP on fulminating until you ADMIT IT!

    ADMIT IT!
    ADMIT IT!

    :foaming at mouth:
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2009
    RV: Les Misérables (1998)

    Great film. Liam Neeson and Geoffrey Rush were excellent! punk
  4. Martijn wrote
    But you're wrong.
    YOU'RE WRONG!

    And I will KEEP on fulminating until you ADMIT IT!

    ADMIT IT!
    ADMIT IT!

    :foaming at mouth:


    The almighty IMDB has whispered into my ear that you, my dear sir, are WRONG

    I rest my case. cool
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Young man, there's no need to feel down.
    I said, young man, pick yourself off the ground.
    I said, young man, 'cause you're in a new town
    There's no need to be unhappy.

    Young man, there's a place you can go.
    I said, young man, when you're short on your dough.
    You can surf there, and I'm sure you will find
    A whole wealth of stuff about films.

    It's fun to surf at the i-m-d-b.
    It's fun to surf at the i-m-d-b.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    ROTFLMAO!!!!! biggrin

    applause punk
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    I liked SIN, CITY but then again i am a big fan of the Frank Miller's visual style anyway.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Martijn wrote
    franz_conrad wrote
    I can't take it for the sake of nothing. (I count Miller's abundance of masculine fantasies as 'nothing' in this case.)


    It's pretty much the same reason 300 ultimately fell flat, isn't it?
    I understand what Miller is trying to do...but it's -to my mind- simply not relevant any more.
    We're pas the age of the overly testosteroned hero in the Eastwood/Schwartzenegger/Lundgren style, and he has served his purpose.

    Miller today is not doing much more than restylize that mythical figure...and it falls flat.


    I don't see lots of people around sharing the view that he's "falling flat", in fact. Rather the contrary.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Really?
    Popular opinion on 300 was positive? shocked
    What did I miss?

    Sin City was a (modest, I think) hit, but that's got to do with the style rather than the content, I think. And I agree: the style is very pleasant and interesting to watch.

    It's Miller's content I was actually commenting on: he is still very much stuck in eighties' stereotypes, which is getting a bit old.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    And i too agree, Seven is quite overrated, if you actually compare it with other films around in the genre and look at it realistically, without "oh-oh-oh-the greatest thriller ever made" wetting your pants' sentiments. I can't quite understand what the fuss is about, really, and i've watched it quite a few times as well. From Fincher's filmography, i'd take The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, Fight Club and the GAME over Seven anytime, but he's too has a couple of more overrated films under his wing, like any other director out there; i don't think he's the next big thing.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Martijn wrote
    Really?
    Popular opinion on 300 was positive? shocked
    What did I miss?

    Sin City was a (modest, I think) hit, but that's got to do with the style rather than the content, I think. And I agree: the style is very pleasant and interesting to watch.

    It's Miller's content I was actually commenting on: he is still very much stuck in eighties' stereotypes, which is getting a bit old.


    You missed packed theaters everywhere, for weeks. The reviews weren't bad either. If someone says "flat fail" for a film, then crap like Ballistic: Ecks vs. Sever come to mind, or Battlefield earth; certainly not 300.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Whoah! That's not falling flat, that's catastrophic fail on epic scale!

    Falling flat I see more as a very clear and intended goal that is completely missed.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    What about Fincher's Zodiac? Also about a serial killer, quite graphic. wink
    Kazoo
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    What about it? confused
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthormarkrayen
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Christodoulides wrote
    And i too agree, Seven is quite overrated, if you actually compare it with other films around in the genre and look at it realistically, without "oh-oh-oh-the greatest thriller ever made" wetting your pants' sentiments. I can't quite understand what the fuss is about, really, and i've watched it quite a few times as well. From Fincher's filmography, i'd take The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, Fight Club and the GAME over Seven anytime, but he's too has a couple of more overrated films under his wing, like any other director out there; i don't think he's the next big thing.


    The Game is absolutely terrific! And Shore's score is a landmark in atmospheric scoring.

    I remember Se7en to be a very successful thriller. The suspense kept building proportionately all the way through like a good thriller should. Its true that it is dark and very pessimistic, but thats a fair choice and not a fault. The theme of emptiness or hopelessness is a fair alternative, or perhaps reaction to, the happy hollywood endings and false escapism that dominates the market.

    Its impossible to please everyone though, many of the same critics who accuse Spielberg of being too sentimental are also the ones attacking the works of Kubrick for being the exact opposite.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Now that we've talked directors and you mentioned Stanley Kubrick whose work i GREATLY admire, i re-watched 2001: A Space Odyssey the other day on the TV and i was reminded of how proper, brilliant masterpieces on the big screen should be like.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    That's one I'm happy to forgive its flaws for the sheer scope of Kubrick's vision (and the visionary middle part).
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Interesting as if someone asked me to name one flawless film, 2001 would instantly come to mind smile
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Kubrick himself couldn't even explain the ending (though many pop critics have attempted one), so that's a pretty big flaw as far as I'm concerned.
    (As you may have noticed I have an extremely low threshold for Heavy Imagery without meaning).
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Well, it's a matter of how you see things; why does everyone have to be stripped and explained? What's wrong with leaving some matters open for consideration and personal thought?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    It doesn't have to be explained. But I'd like it to make sense.
    If I have nothing to hold on to but a set of images (old man eating soup), what am I supposed to do with that?

    Incidentally, the end isn't even my biggest gripe with the film: I find that Kubrick is SO happy with his state of the art special effects (and they ARE spectacular, no doubt about that!) that just too often he revels in them for too long, which in my opinion seriously hurts both the pacing and the story.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Christodoulides wrote
    Now that we've talked directors and you mentioned Stanley Kubrick whose work i GREATLY admire, i re-watched 2001: A Space Odyssey the other day on the TV and i was reminded of how proper, brilliant masterpieces on the big screen should be like.


    Oddly enough I watched it last week for the first time in many as year.

    Brilliant film.

    ( has anyone read the book? )
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    Reading anything by Arthur C. Clarke leaves a strange taste in my mouth.
    I know, I know...separate the art from the person.
    I'm working on it. sad
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    ouch!

    I've only read Childhood's End.....that was a struggle.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
    The only Clarke I've ever read was A Fall Of Moondust, which was really good!
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn