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      CommentAuthorJoris
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2008
    Hi Franz!

    Totally agree!!!! For anyone who was a tad dissapointed in the composer recently, they should listen to 'STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE'... In fact, every filmmusic fan that has been a bit dissapointed in the recent score releases in general should pic this one up! It's a true gem and I can't recommand it enough!!!!

    grtz, The Jo-joker
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2008
    Joris wrote
    Hi Franz!

    Totally agree!!!! For anyone who was a tad dissapointed in the composer recently, they should listen to 'STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE'... In fact, every filmmusic fan that has been a bit dissapointed in the recent score releases in general should pic this one up! It's a true gem and I can't recommand it enough!!!!

    grtz, The Jo-joker


    Yup. Listening to it now, in fact.

    And that interview that was referenced two posts up is really recommended. Mr. Schweiger really knows how to ask interesting questions, and a 50-minute show allows the interviewee to actually elaborate a bit.
    I am extremely serious.
  1. Sounds like On the Score interviewed chipmunks. Audio problem!
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008
    I've read a lot of comments recently about people who have been surprised by Elfman's 2008 scores. They're all good - I will agree with them about that - but the curious thing is the number of people who say they don't like Elfman, but they really like Standard Operating Procedure, Wanted and Hellboy II.

    Obviously it would be unfair to name names, so I will refer to them as Mr X and Mr Y (though their real names are Marselus and Demetris) - but since those three scores are absolutely representative of Elfman's modern style, I find it really odd that someone can think they are good, but the rest of his stuff is bad. SOP throws a bit of Glass into the mix, but is generally similar to "Serenada Schizophrena" and his recent style; Wanted is very much an extension of the Spiderman scores, with a bit of Planet of the Apes thrown in; and Hellboy II is like a "greatest hits" package of his modern work, with Spiderman and Planet of the Apes again, but also very much Hulk, Mission: Impossible and even parts of the the Men in Black style. I just find it really odd that someone could dislike those scores, but like ones which are fundamentally extremely similar in both style and quality.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008
    Southall wrote
    Obviously it would be unfair to name names, so I will refer to them as Mr X and Mr Y (though their real names are Marselus and Demetris)


    biggrin

    I also find it odd how people usually start off with "Well, I'm no Elfman fan, but I do love...", then precede to name quite a few scores of his. Funny that.

    I'm no Williams fan, but I do love [insert a shit load of Williams scores].
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      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008 edited
    Southall wrote
    Obviously it would be unfair to name names, so I will refer to them as Mr X and Mr Y (though their real names are Marselus and Demetris)

    biggrin

    Touché, but the thing is until now no Elfman score had caught my attention (outside the film). Hellboy 2 and S.O.P. (I have my reservations with Wanted though) may not be his best scores but will be those that have opened my path to Elfman´s music. Oh, and I liked both Spiderman scores and even Planet of te Apes. Never felt the need to listen them outside the film though.
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008 edited
    Southall wrote
    I've read a lot of comments recently about people who have been surprised by Elfman's 2008 scores. They're all good - I will agree with them about that - but the curious thing is the number of people who say they don't like Elfman, but they really like Standard Operating Procedure, Wanted and Hellboy II.

    Obviously it would be unfair to name names, so I will refer to them as Mr X and Mr Y (though their real names are Marselus and Demetris) - but since those three scores are absolutely representative of Elfman's modern style, I find it really odd that someone can think they are good, but the rest of his stuff is bad. SOP throws a bit of Glass into the mix, but is generally similar to "Serenada Schizophrena" and his recent style; Wanted is very much an extension of the Spiderman scores, with a bit of Planet of the Apes thrown in; and Hellboy II is like a "greatest hits" package of his modern work, with Spiderman and Planet of the Apes again, but also very much Hulk, Mission: Impossible and even parts of the the Men in Black style. I just find it really odd that someone could dislike those scores, but like ones which are fundamentally extremely similar in both style and quality.


    Relax. All the scores you mention are the ones i like too. I don't see any mention on crap like Mars Attacks!, Dead Presidents, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Spy Kids, Flubber, The Nightmare Before Christmas and Edward Scissorhands. That's the stuff i despise and last time i checked, they were pretty much connected to what Elfman is overall.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008
    Sometimes there can be a thin line between liking something and not liking it even between scores that are kind of similar. I find this particularly true with a composer I'm hot / cold on like Elfman.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008
    Timmer wrote
    Sometimes there can be a thin line between liking something and not liking it even between scores that are kind of similar. I find this particularly true with a composer I'm hot / cold on like Elfman.


    It always amazed me how people can get bitch and touchy when it comes to Elfman though. It's one of those no-go territories in film music whereas the man (others too, of course) has ALSO written some pretty bad, almost unlistenable stuff smile
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Sometimes there can be a thin line between liking something and not liking it even between scores that are kind of similar. I find this particularly true with a composer I'm hot / cold on like Elfman.


    It always amazed me how people can get bitch and touchy when it comes to Elfman though. It's one of those no-go territories in film music whereas the man (others too, of course) has ALSO written some pretty bad, almost unlistenable stuff smile


    Think that's bad D? Check out the god that is Goldsmith at FSM wink .....which I'm sure you've seen from time to time
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008
    Timmer wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Sometimes there can be a thin line between liking something and not liking it even between scores that are kind of similar. I find this particularly true with a composer I'm hot / cold on like Elfman.


    It always amazed me how people can get bitch and touchy when it comes to Elfman though. It's one of those no-go territories in film music whereas the man (others too, of course) has ALSO written some pretty bad, almost unlistenable stuff smile


    Think that's bad D? Check out the god that is Goldsmith at FSM wink .....which I'm sure you've seen from time to time


    Pfff, i'll give you that for sure! shocked smile
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008
    Timmer wrote
    Sometimes there can be a thin line between liking something and not liking it even between scores that are kind of similar. I find this particularly true with a composer I'm hot / cold on like Elfman.

    Indeed. That´s exactly what has happened to me with Elfman and S.O.P. / Hellboy 2. Even if they are similar to other works by Elfman, these two have made the "click" in me. Weird, but true.
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Sometimes there can be a thin line between liking something and not liking it even between scores that are kind of similar. I find this particularly true with a composer I'm hot / cold on like Elfman.


    It always amazed me how people can get bitch and touchy when it comes to Elfman though. It's one of those no-go territories in film music whereas the man (others too, of course) has ALSO written some pretty bad, almost unlistenable stuff smile


    You've all made some good points. Of course, Elfman's written some stuff I think is garbage (eg The Kingdom!) but a lot of the things you say you don't like are from his old days, and he's very different now - so much more mature, with such a command of the orchestra which is remarkable from someone self-trained (perhaps he has a lot of help in that department, but I don't think so).

    I'm not bitching by the way, just genuinely surprised.

    Also, I don't think Elfman is in the "can't criticise" bracket. It's not like Goldsmith or Williams where hoardes of people will descend on you at the merest hint of criticism (and Giacchino seems to be attracting the same sort of fan now).
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2008
    Southall wrote

    Also, I don't think Elfman is in the "can't criticise" bracket. It's not like Goldsmith or Williams where hoardes of people will descend on you at the merest hint of criticism (and Giacchino seems to be attracting the same sort of fan now).


    Why? Do you know if anyone said anything bad about Williams or Goldsmith?
    I want NAMES. Names and ADDRESSES. Jesus, if I ever get my hands on them...
  2. I must confess last year I spoke very negatively of Elfman. I haven't heard WANTED and HELLBOY II, but it's amazing how one score - STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE - can turn around an opinion. And I felt very positive about that score before I saw the film.

    Though to be honest, the reason I did get into a bit of a negative attitude towards him, THE KINGDOM and MEET THE ROBINSONS, weren't shining points in his career. I can grudgingly accept them as appropriate for their films, but I guess I don't like the films or that style of music enough to get past the early judgements.

    It isn't the first time I've done this with Elfman though. CHARLIE and CORPSE BRIDE didn't fill me with joy, but CHARLOTTE'S WEB had me going on about how great he was. (Despite not being *that* different.) There is something about him as a composer that inspires frustration in me for periods, even though odds are on that I know he's a more solid option to compose a film these days than Hans Zimmer, James Horner or James Newton Howard. (I think that it's later Tim Burton scores I have the most trouble with.)

    And I do get amazed at people who take a shine to his every move in much the same way that I'm surprised at people who can't tell a strong Williams score from a lesser one, or the same for other composers. The Kaplans on the FSM podcast - brilliant as they are - tend to surprise me with their unanimous praise for each and every Elfman score. (And their opinions of Silvestri - I'm just lost for words.)
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2008
    Charlote's Web was indeed a shine of innocent magic and beauty amidst very bad scores that surrounded it. S.O.P is one of the most outstanding and mature points in his career so far; i am not saying that he won't ever produce another of those irritating 'old' Elfman on auto pilot again, but i am confident that S.O.P will play a very influential role in his career from this point onward. Such a thoughtful, meaningful musical work, is very hard to overlook.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorJoris
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2008
    Christo, have i read it correctly that you dispise 'Nightmare before christmas' AND 'Edward Scissorhand'??? Tastes can differ because I simply adore these scores and think it's up there with his magnus opus: Batman.

    then again... it's a good thing that there's something for everyone to enjoy... right? wink
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2008 edited
    Joris wrote
    Christo, have i read it correctly that you dispise 'Nightmare before christmas' AND 'Edward Scissorhand'??? Tastes can differ because I simply adore these scores and think it's up there with his magnus opus: Batman.


    Indeed. We all have different taste and all that, but when someone calls those scores "crap", it's a bit like someone saying to me that they HATE pizza or that they can't stand to get a massage or that sex is overrated or whatever. I just cannot FATHOM how someone can listen to the "Ice Dance", for example, and utter those words. But there you go.

    I'm surprised about the positive words on CHARLOTTE'S WEB, though. I find that to be a highly mediocre, auto-pilot score after a couple or BRILLIANT efforts (CHARLIE and CORPSE). In other words, the opposite of you guys. I also think, as I've mentioned in this thread quite a few times already, that THE KINGDOM was a superb score, one of Elfman's Top 10 of all time - highly underrated and misunderstood among film score fans who aren't even familiar with the post-rock style it is emulating. Synth plays a MINOR role in this...it's mostly acoustic, pop sensibilities with some percussive PLANET OF THE APES-riffs in the action material.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2008 edited
    Well, let's just say that on ELFMAN, we couldn't be standing more far away!







    Or is it on all the other subjects as well!? wink kiss Except the sex is definitely not overrated, rather the opposite sentiment of yours; that might be the only common ground we share so far wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2008
    Demetris' semantics confuse me.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2008
    Same here confused
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2008
    biggrin

    You're like the opposite of Jordi and take syntax to the extreme! dizzy
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Relax. All the scores you mention are the ones i like too. I don't see any mention on crap like...

    Mars Attacks!


    Not crap!


    Dead Presidents


    Not crap!


    Charlie and the Chocolate Factory


    Not crap!


    Spy Kids


    I'll give ya that one.


    Flubber


    Great end credit cue.


    The Nightmare Before Christmas and Edward Scissorhands


    Two of his all time best. You like Charlotte's Web but can't appreciate the brilliance behind Nightmare and Scissorhands?! shocked

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2008
    Great end credit cue? Oh and that saves it ? wink tongue Don't bother mate, when it comes to Elfman, we fall into the same category as Thor and me kiss
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  3. Thor wrote
    I'm surprised about the positive words on CHARLOTTE'S WEB, though. I find that to be a highly mediocre, auto-pilot score after a couple or BRILLIANT efforts (CHARLIE and CORPSE). In other words, the opposite of you guys. I also think, as I've mentioned in this thread quite a few times already, that THE KINGDOM was a superb score, one of Elfman's Top 10 of all time - highly underrated and misunderstood among film score fans who aren't even familiar with the post-rock style it is emulating. Synth plays a MINOR role in this...it's mostly acoustic, pop sensibilities with some percussive PLANET OF THE APES-riffs in the action material.


    Oh I know what he's trying to do in KINGDOM. But as it's not a style of music I would naturally be inclined towards, the story itself needed to connect me to it. (As it did in say - MIAMI VICE, or COLLATERAL.) But that film's narrative (except for a surprisingly effective final line of dialogue) wasn't compelling enough to me to create an attachment to its craft, and in particular, its music.

    Of CHARLIE and CORPSE... I probably prefer CORPSE of the two. (Which is probably no surprise, since the main theme of S.O.P has EXACTLY the same harmonic progression underneath.) CHARLIE for me is exactly what CHARLOTTE is for you - unambitious, relying on familiar tricks, very little making an impression through all the shifts in mood. It may work if you've seen the film, but as that independent listening experience I've heard you enshrine from time to time, it feels too easy for him. What I did like about CHARLOTTE was it continued on in the spirit of SOMMERSBY, a style we haven't heard from Elfman for a long time, when the restless energy typical of much of his work for fantasy subjects is absent for long stretches as he outlines and explores some strong melodies.

    EDWARD SCISSORHANDS is one that I love incidentally. That is the one Tim Burton film I've seen that moves me to do more than analyze the framing and wonder how he achieved various design effects. 'Ice Dance' and the general excellence of that score on a moment-by-moment basis have a lot to do with that.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Great end credit cue? Oh and that saves it ? wink tongue Don't bother mate, when it comes to Elfman, we fall into the same category as Thor and me kiss


    Well, I don't remember too much from that score but the fantastic end credit cue, which reminds me a bit of The Incredibles "Incredits." Give a listen. Actually, maybe I'll add it to my listening playlist for tomorrow.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2008
    Yeah, Flubber is very good. I don't understand why Spy Kids is being discussed here though, since Elfman's contribution was one very short piece unless I'm remembering wrong. It's hardly a surprise that everyone thinks it's crap, since it's actually by John Debney.
  4. I was listening to Hellboy II earlier and I see what you mean James(?) when you mentioned all the references to other scores that feature in this Hellboy sequel. But I have to admit that, rather than sounding like a coherent amalgam of influences to produce a well-constructed whole, it all sounds really disjointed and bitty.

    Or maybe I'm just disappointed at the missed opportunity for Beltrami to build on a solid musical world that he put together for the first movie that has been completely shelved for this second film.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    Demetris' semantics confuse me.


    They confuse me too. wink dizzy tongue
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2008
    Too much pizza is fattening and pizza with anchovies is too salty.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt