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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2008 edited
    Underrated? He is considered to be one of the "important" contemporary directors, both among academics and fans. Blade Runner and Thelma & Louise are standard literature for any film student. So no way he is underrated...


    He's underrated in the sense that people also underrate the audiovisual ability of the film medium (over story). As a graphic artist, he's very conscious of film's ability to create MOOD and visceral experiences. He often says himself that the STORY is the main thing, but I don't really believe him.

    The "controversies" he's been involved in are proof of insecurity! If he had a strong vision musically from the outset, and knew what he wanted and what he was doing, can you explain the Kingdom of Heaven mess?


    Because he's very CONSCIOUS of the way music works in film. If he wasn't, he wouldn't have interferred as much. His version of the ALIEN score, for example, is better than Goldsmith's approach, IMO. The 13TH WARRIOR quote in KINGDOM OF HEAVEN works great, too. It's one thing to trust that a film composer delivers his goods, but it's another to understand the filmatic language so well that you have the GUTS to supersede that and look at what your own film calls for (that may even improve upon an original composition).
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthormoviescore
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2008
    Fair enough... I agree that Ridley is a stunning director when it comes to creating moods and most of his films are visually stunning. I just have a hard time seeing what he's doing with music that is good. Perhaps it's more a matter of taste than anything else...

    mc
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2008 edited
    moviescore wrote
    Fair enough... I agree that Ridley is a stunning director when it comes to creating moods and most of his films are visually stunning. I just have a hard time seeing what he's doing with music that is good. Perhaps it's more a matter of taste than anything else...

    mc


    Well, to use ALIEN as an example, his version of the score underlines the Freudian imagery and symbolism far more than Goldsmith's score, which is more narrative-driven. And since the film is basically a tour-de-force of audiovisual symbolism, that approach works better, IMO.

    Outside the controversies, many of his scores are brilliant examples of the artform - BLADE RUNNER, GLADIATOR, THELMA & LOUISE, 1492, BLACK HAWK DOWN, BLACK RAIN, THE DUELLISTS, both versions of LEGEND etc.

    By the way - and back on-topic - I'd like to see Goldenthal collaborate with Scott at some point. Elliot proved his "mood" ability on stuff like HEAT (which has as much "Ridley Scott" about it as it does Michael Mann, IMO), ALIEN 3 or GOLDEN GATE.
    I am extremely serious.
  1. I think Scott DOES understand music, actually, but he goes all too much about pure functionality.

    That's why he doesn't fiddle around with Zimmer and Streitenfeld, they just do what he demands.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
    I think sometimes we forget that people who aren't film score geeks won't be bothered by some of the stuff that bothers us - when I watched Kingdom of Heaven, I was instantly transported somewhere else when The 13th Warrior appears in the score, but for over 99% of the viewers, they won't notice.

    I have to say though that I wasn't the only person in the cinema who laughed out loud at the sheer awfulness of the music in Gladiator, which must be one of the ultimate examples of a score which makes a great CD but is truly, indescribably dire as a film score.

    I do think the final music works quite well in Alien, but that's probably the only (major) Scott score where I would say that. Well, maybe Black Hawk Down as well, but I hated that film on so many levels I wasn't really paying attention to its music.
  2. Thor wrote
    I'd like to see Goldenthal collaborate with Scott at some point. Elliot proved his "mood" ability on stuff like HEAT (which has as much "Ridley Scott" about it as it does Michael Mann, IMO), ALIEN 3 or GOLDEN GATE.


    One of the things I like about the HEAT score is the way it pulls off the journey from the lean austere sound of string quartet and Branca guitar orchestra to a full orchestra romantic tragedy. But I don't associate either emotional palette with Ridley Scott's use of music, except in ALIEN, where Goldsmith's unforgiving harmonic world has some similarities to the austere half of HEAT. (The opening of BLACK HAWK DOWN also has a lean string sound as well, but again, it's pretty isolated in the man's career.)
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
    Southall wrote

    I have to say though that I wasn't the only person in the cinema who laughed out loud at the sheer awfulness of the music in Gladiator, which must be one of the ultimate examples of a score which makes a great CD but is truly, indescribably dire as a film score.



    My eyes ache from what i read biggrin tongue
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthormoviescore
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
    Thor wrote
    Outside the controversies, many of his scores are brilliant examples of the artform - BLADE RUNNER, GLADIATOR, THELMA & LOUISE, 1492, BLACK HAWK DOWN, BLACK RAIN, THE DUELLISTS, both versions of LEGEND etc.


    Well, there you go. Except The Duellists and Goldsmith's Legend, those are all scores that never get under my skin. I know that Blade Runner is a classic and everyone seems to love it - I don't. And I'm speaking about the functionality of the music in the films. To me, most of the scores you mention are very one-dimensional.

    mc
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008 edited
    franz_conrad wrote
    Thor wrote
    I'd like to see Goldenthal collaborate with Scott at some point. Elliot proved his "mood" ability on stuff like HEAT (which has as much "Ridley Scott" about it as it does Michael Mann, IMO), ALIEN 3 or GOLDEN GATE.


    One of the things I like about the HEAT score is the way it pulls off the journey from the lean austere sound of string quartet and Branca guitar orchestra to a full orchestra romantic tragedy. But I don't associate either emotional palette with Ridley Scott's use of music, except in ALIEN, where Goldsmith's unforgiving harmonic world has some similarities to the austere half of HEAT. (The opening of BLACK HAWK DOWN also has a lean string sound as well, but again, it's pretty isolated in the man's career.)


    I agree. I was more thinking that the cityscapes often bear a Scott-ian ambiance, although perhaps somewhat "cleaner". And Goldenthal's music underlined the "vastness" and loneliness of this cityscape bathed in sunset. He did the same in GOLDEN GATE, really.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
    moviescore wrote
    Thor wrote
    Outside the controversies, many of his scores are brilliant examples of the artform - BLADE RUNNER, GLADIATOR, THELMA & LOUISE, 1492, BLACK HAWK DOWN, BLACK RAIN, THE DUELLISTS, both versions of LEGEND etc.


    Well, there you go. Except The Duellists and Goldsmith's Legend, those are all scores that never get under my skin. I know that Blade Runner is a classic and everyone seems to love it - I don't. And I'm speaking about the functionality of the music in the films. To me, most of the scores you mention are very one-dimensional.

    mc


    BLADE RUNNER is in my opinion the most three-dimensional score of all time, as it meshes and co-operates with the other sound effects and visuals to create a unique amalgam of sensations. Non-diegetic music bleeds into diegetic sound effects and vice versa. It's almost UNIQUE in film music history.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008 edited
    Southall wrote

    I have to say though that I wasn't the only person in the cinema who laughed out loud at the sheer awfulness of the music in Gladiator, which must be one of the ultimate examples of a score which makes a great CD but is truly, indescribably dire as a film score.


    GLADIATOR is a marvelous score from the get-go, ever since the wordless vocal (way before it became clichée) and ethereal harmonies accompany Maximus' hand gliding softly across the straws. It puts the spectator in a meditative mood so that the break to violent battle field and aggressive, Holst-inspired military rhythms and fanfares becomes all the more surprising and effective.
    I am extremely serious.
  3. It was Zimmer's idea to have that scene scored, BTW. Scott wanted to leave the scene without music and Zimmer told Gerrard to score it and gave him the whole Progeny to Battle sequence "as a gift", that's what he said somewhere.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
    Gladiator is a modern masterpiece, whether some like it or not.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Gladiator is a modern masterpiece, whether some like it or not.


    How so?

    my own opinion is that it's an enjoyable film and nothing more
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  4. The question is if he's talking about the film or score.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
    Score. Film is brilliant in its own terms as well.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Score. Film is brilliant in its own terms as well.


    It's an enjoyable score for sure but a masterpiece???
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008 edited
    Thor wrote
    Southall wrote

    I have to say though that I wasn't the only person in the cinema who laughed out loud at the sheer awfulness of the music in Gladiator, which must be one of the ultimate examples of a score which makes a great CD but is truly, indescribably dire as a film score.


    GLADIATOR is a marvelous score from the get-go, ever since the wordless vocal (way before it became clichée) and ethereal harmonies accompany Maximus' hand gliding softly across the straws. It puts the spectator in a meditative mood so that the break to violent battle field and aggressive, Holst-inspired military rhythms and fanfares becomes all the more surprising and effective.


    Interesting how different people's takes on things can be. For me it sounds like cheap instrumental pop music which happens to be occurring at the same time as the film. The film is very modern in the way it's made so I wouldn't level accusations of anachronism against the music, but it just didn't work for me.

    As for Bladerunner... unsurprisingly, again I disagree. I've always felt it a real shame that such a good film has such a one-dimensional score.

    Indeed, those two composers (Zimmer and Vangelis) are ones whose music almost always makes my experience of a film worse. There's no real sign of dramatic instinct, though Zimmer has shown on occasion that he can really nail something if it's within the relatively narrow range of projects that work for him (eg The Thin Red Line - I can't imagine any film composer, past or present, having written a more brilliant score for that film - though even then the music as heard in the film is presumably a result of the director mixing up the extraordinarily amount of material recorded by Zimmer and using it as he wanted, so perhaps I shouldn't give Zimmer the credit for the dramatic power it holds - I will certainly give him the credit for the quality of the music as music, of course).
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      CommentAuthormoviescore
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
    James, will you marry me?

    wink

    mc
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      CommentAuthorJim Ware
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008 edited
    Ignore this! Temporary case of posting ineptitude!
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008 edited
    I haven´t seen a Ridley Scott movie where the music hasn´t played a major part in the always positive experience. He continues to make the best movies, continues to meddle with the music, and continues being ignored by the Academy. A shame, really.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008 edited
    Southall wrote
    Indeed, those two composers (Zimmer and Vangelis) are ones whose music almost always makes my experience of a film worse.


    And again vice versa - for me, these two composers are almost always a guarantee that my moviegoing experience will be enhanced by the music - especially if it's in modes that they do best (Zimmer in ethnic and/or action mode, for example).

    Of course, in relation to BLADE RUNNER, I'm totally biased, as I wrote one of my analysis chapters in my master thesis on this score, but in that process I truly discovered the DEPTH of it as related to the PROJECT that the film was carrying. For some reason, each and every department in the filmmaking enterprise seemed to click on this one. To me, this is the total ANTI-THESIS of one-dimensionality. It's about as three-dimensional as a score can get in relation to an on-screen narrative and canvas. Strange that we can have so diametrically opposing views on this, but I guess that is what makes us human. smile
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
    James, have you seen 1492 the conquest of paradise?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  5. That's a Ridley Scott movie I don't frankly remember myself.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  6. I really like the BLADERUNNER score. Film scores don't always need to be narrative-focused, and there's a strong case for the 'mood score', which BLADERUNNER is. But 1492 is a shocker as a film score, not helped by the fact that the film really only existed in order to capitalise on the title being 500 years earlier than the year of release. That music works much better as a New Age music album.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2008
    I'm scared to say I like Gladiator now.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    James, have you seen 1492 the conquest of paradise?


    Don't remind me of that. I have fond memories of the hilarious ineptitude of the music, but that's about the only positive thing which can be said about that film - a rare case of a film so bad, that having such an abysmal excuse for a score is about the only thing that makes it worth watching, just to see how much worse it can get (and it keeps on managing it!)

    Surely you're not going to say you like it? And I thought you were a man of taste!
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      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2008
    Personally I love the score of Gladiator, and I found the score really enhancing the movie, especially "Am I Not Merciful?" was totally spot on! Just my opinion wink
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2008
    Southall wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    James, have you seen 1492 the conquest of paradise?


    Don't remind me of that. I have fond memories of the hilarious ineptitude of the music, but that's about the only positive thing which can be said about that film - a rare case of a film so bad, that having such an abysmal excuse for a score is about the only thing that makes it worth watching, just to see how much worse it can get (and it keeps on managing it!)

    Surely you're not going to say you like it? And I thought you were a man of taste!


    No, i admit the movie was pretty much ODD to say the least but i liked how the score functioned within it. There were parts that were actually watchable due to the score's presence.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthormoviescore
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2008
    I didn't realize I would open up a can of worms. Interesting discussion... but wrong thread? Sorry for that! shame