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      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    Like this one, already a classic here:

    bhangra
    bhangra
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    Especially when you juggle and I dodge bullets...

    bounce bhangra bounce
    kill ________ bhangra fireworks
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    biggrin
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    Timmer wrote
    That would work just as well, I like emoticons that have multiple uses and make great combinations with others.


    You'll have to excuse the terrible quality and the low volume, but we need a slap emoticon like this.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    Indeed!
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    Nautilus wrote
    NP:Lost Season 1 (GIACCHINO)

    It remains my favourite album of the whole show.

    Ok, Season 3 is much more thematic and diverse, but season 1 has some mysthical sense. The synthetiser with ethnic instrumentation and Giacchino's trademark makes this score a real listening experience.

    But this saga gave us so many great themes: juliet's , the Island, Kate's, Oceanic six's, ben's, Demond & Penny.....


    Indeed, the electronic stuff is very cool. I love the synthy percussion in all the season 1 appearances of the Island theme. cool
  1. Steven wrote
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    McNeely had a chance [..] and blew it by overcomposing.


    If that's the case, I sure wish we had more overcomposed scores being released.


    I so totally agree with that remark. SOTE is mindblowing, as close to Star Wars we got at the time, and probably will never have again. Why? Because it was fanfaristic !!!
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    Steven wrote
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    McNeely had a chance [..] and blew it by overcomposing.

    If that's the case, I sure wish we had more overcomposed scores being released.

    Come on, we´ve had this discussion before. SotE is an opera that stylistically is as far away from the original as Kiner´s Clone Wars score is (in different directions, of course). If McNeely hadn´t quoted Williams´ work here and there, no one would have thought this to be a Star Wars score (in the 'old' trilogy style, which was all we had then - no one could have known (then) that Williams would start to write a lot more chaotic style action cues for the 'new' trilogy; who knows, maybe he liked what McNeely did dizzy ).

    I like the old and new thematic material in SotE (the Coruscant and Black Sun stuff) despite its stylistical divergence from SW, but beyond that, it´s unlistenable for me, even more so than the action stuff Williams writes nowadays. A lot less would have been a lot more.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    A lot less would have been a lot more.


    Says you. I enjoy every note of it, regardless of whether it's intended to be a Star Wars score or not.
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    Well, then let me say it this way: If Ottman had done with Superman Returns what McNeely had done with Shadows, the result would have been a desaster, because the score would have been so much over the top that the movie would have fallen even more flat than it did. Sometimes even as scorefanatics we have to take a step back and admit what´s good for a movie, and not what we want a score to be.
  2. The only downside with SotE is: there's hardly enough of it. The score is already over when I'm at my boiling point. sad
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Well, then let me say it this way: If Ottman had done with Superman Returns what McNeely had done with Shadows, the result would have been a desaster, because the score would have been so much over the top that the movie would have fallen even more flat than it did. Sometimes even as scorefanatics we have to take a step back and admit what´s good for a movie, and not what we want a score to be.


    Fair enough. But I'm not really concerned with Superman Returns, I just know that I prefer McNeely's "overcomposing" to Ottman's score (even though I do enjoy Ottman's score).
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    DreamTheater wrote
    The only downside with SotE is: there's hardly enough of it. The score is already over when I'm at my boiling point. sad

    It´s great that you like it, but if you take away the quotes, is it really a Star Wars score? I think not, and that´s where I´m coming from. Is it good music? Yeah, some of it, of course. Is it well composed? Yeah, without a doubt, all of it (even the stuff I don´t like). But that doesn´t change the fact that for me McNeely failed the assignment to write a classic SW score, and that´s why I said that maybe McNeely would have been a bad choice for Superman Returns.

    If you ask me (I know you don´t), I would prefer John Debney. He proved with Lair that he can write Williams style action that actually fits.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Well, then let me say it this way: If Ottman had done with Superman Returns what McNeely had done with Shadows, the result would have been a desaster, because the score would have been so much over the top that the movie would have fallen even more flat than it did.


    Bah! You are basing this on one score... actually a concert piece. McNeely would have hit a homerun on Superman Returns. He wouldn't have butchered Williams love theme, he would have known how to write a strong melody (I still have no idea what the hell that "new" music for Superman and Lois is), there would be NO chorus for Superman's heroic (worst mistake of the ENTIRE Suerpman Returns score) and McNeely's action music is far more tighter and coherent than Ottman's. Just imagine "Cadillac Freefall" underneath the plane rescue!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    DreamTheater wrote
    The only downside with SotE is: there's hardly enough of it. The score is already over when I'm at my boiling point. sad

    It´s great that you like it, but if you take away the quotes, is it really a Star Wars score?


    Yes... it's a massive, thematic, fully symphonic score injected with McNeely's own personal style and voice! That's Star Wars!

    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    If you ask me (I know you don´t), I would prefer John Debney. He proved with Lair that he can write Williams style action that actually fits.


    Because Debney completely ripped off Williams... and Goldsmith and Poledouris, etc, etc, etc.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    Filmscoregirl wrote
    I thought John Ottman did the best job he could have - working with one of the most iconic themes ever created in film music.

    Now... for one brief moment... imagine if some one like Joel McNeely scored that film.

    I don´t know; McNeely had a chance to do his very own Williams style score (Shadows of the Empire), and blew it by overcomposing. At least Ottman had the decency not to try to outdo Williams. Yeah, the score is nothing special, but it served its purpose for the even less special movie.


    In fairness, it probably wasn't hard for Ottman to avoid outdoing Williams.

    Comparing it with Shadows of the Empire strikes me as being wholly unfair. Even more than a video game, that was a no-holds-barred opportunity for the composer to go as far as he wanted - with no limitations. I seriously doubt McNeely would have done what he did had he been scoring a film.

    I actually think Superman Returns is probably Ottman's best score, and it certainly didn't harm the film in any way, but I can't think of any McNeely scores which aren't better than it, from either a musical or dramatic point of view. I think he could really have breathed some much-needed life into the film.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    All this Shadows of the Empire talk...

    NP: Shadows of the Empire - Joel McNeely

    Simply superb Star Wars music!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    I've always thought Shadows of the Empire to be a really great Star Wars score. Horner's score to Wrath of Khan was very different to Goldsmith's score, far more so than McNeely's is to Williams', but no one complains about that?

    Also, although I suppose it's a matter of taste and preference, I think this style of 'overcomposing' would be great to hear in a film like Superman Returns. Why not!?
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    Steven wrote
    I've always thought Shadows of the Empire to be a really great Star Wars score. Horner's score to Wrath of Khan was very different to Goldsmith's score, far more so than McNeely's is to Williams', but no one complains about that?


    Great point!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  3. PUBLIC ENEMIES --- Elliot Goldenthal

    Nice little score, but oh so safe from one of the most daring composers out there, shame really
    waaaaaahhhhhhhh!!! Where's my nut? arrrghhhhhhh
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    Argh. I just lost a very detailed answer to each and every point made above. So I´ll take the short route now.

    1) I chose SotE because this is the one opportunity where McNeely had to step in Williams shoes. I know it´s not a filmscore, but it´s as close as we get to what Erik asked for, McNeely doing Williams. I think McNeely failed that. He did something completely different. Some may think it´s still SW, I don´t think it is.

    2) I agree that it´s possible that McNeely would have chosen a different style for a movie score than for a book score.

    3) Goldsmith didn´t define Trek as Williams defined SW, since Trek had been on air with many different composers and styles. And Horner wrote a great space adventure score, not an opera. So there´s no need to complain for me.

    4) There are movies that would profit from an overcomposed score. I´m just not sure Supe´s Return would have been that movie.

    5) Debney copied Williams. That´s right. I was under the impression that that´s what Erik wanted from Ottman, too.

    6) Yes, it´s all about taste, and it´s just my opinion. As is everybody else´s.
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      CommentAuthorNautilus
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    mmm...I listened a couple of times Shadow of the empire and I had the impresion that it was a disjointed couple of ideas put together. I can't remember any theme or any great action cue.It was bombastic? yes, sometimes.

    I don't think it has nothing to do with Williams star wars style, but it's not a Lucas movie either, it's a book. And Probably this score fits better in this case.


    Perhaps it's time to make another listen....

    NP:Shadows of the Empire
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Argh. I just lost a very detailed answer to each and every point made above. So I´ll take the short route now.

    1) I chose SotE because this is the one opportunity where McNeely had to step in Williams shoes. I know it´s not a filmscore, but it´s as close as we get to what Erik asked for, McNeely doing Williams. I think McNeely failed that. He did something completely different. Some may think it´s still SW, I don´t think it is.


    I didn't say that I wanted McNeely to copy Williams. I would have been curious to see a composer with true composing chops to have a crack at Superman Return. Ottman is far to dejointed while McNeely has proved time and time again that he understands how a true symphonic film score is created!

    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    2) I agree that it´s possible that McNeely would have chosen a different style for a movie score than for a book score.


    Shadows was a project where he could channel Williams magic while at the same time experimenting on his own style to come up with something familiar yet very unique that still stayed true to the Star Wars musical universe Williams created!

    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    3) Goldsmith didn´t define Trek as Williams defined SW, since Trek had been on air with many different composers and styles. And Horner wrote a great space adventure score, not an opera. So there´s no need to complain for me.


    Oh yes Goldsmith most definately created the sound of Star Trek. Actullally, he complete redifined it. What theme do you think is the one theme that people associate Star Trek with... it's most definately NOT Courage fanfare and theme... it's Goldsmith theme from The Motion Picture.

    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    4) There are movies that would profit from an overcomposed score. I´m just not sure Supe´s Return would have been that movie.


    Williams went almost completely over the top with his original score to Superman. The Krypton sequences are completely over the top, all the big rescues are over the top... hell that main title sequence is the defination of over the top... but you know what, it works BRILLIANTLY! There are just some film's that benifit from big ballsy scores and the Superman series is one of them!

    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    5) Debney copied Williams. That´s right. I was under the impression that that´s what Erik wanted from Ottman, too.


    Good lord, no! I wanted a competent film score but the changes Ottman made to classic themes (the new orchestrations of the love theme are vomit ) and even his own new "themes" are just so weak... except for the new Luthor Theme which is great! What I would have loved was something along the lines of Superman IV by Alexander Courage. Superb, organized, competent orchestral music with hints of Williams original and bold new themes (even though the big new theme was written by Williams himself wink ) Ottman was out of his league, IMHO. I think he has written some fantastic music in the past (Usual Suspects, Apt Pupil, X2) but for some reason was unable to really get the job done with Superman Returns.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    Erik Woods wrote
    I didn't say that I wanted McNeely to copy Williams. I would have been curious to see a composer with true composing chops to have a crack at Superman Return.

    Okay then.

    Shadows was a project where he could channel Williams magic while at the same time experimenting on his own style to come up with something familiar yet very unique that still stayed true to the Star Wars musical universe Williams created!

    I don´t agree, obviously. If I want to listen to SW music, I never turn to SotE. I do listen to it, every couple of years, and every time I barely make it to the end.

    Oh yes Goldsmith most definately created the sound of Star Trek.

    Sorry, but there you are wrong. The sound of Star Trek is the actual opening fanfare composed by Courage. This and nothing else is what created and defines Trek as Trek, to this day. Both themes are well known, that´s for sure, but it´s the Courage fanfare that to this day gets used everywhere, by every composer, not the Goldsmith theme.

    Actullally, he complete redifined it.

    That´s more like it, but... (see below)

    What theme do you think is the one theme that people associate Star Trek with... it's most definately NOT Courage fanfare and theme... it's Goldsmith theme from The Motion Picture.

    This might be the case today, after seven TNG seasons blurring that theme out of TV speakers. But before 1982, there were 79 episodes of classic Trek - and one movie. So what do you think people associated with Trek then? And then came Horner, opening the second movie with Courage´s iconic fanfare. Now guess again whether people considered that to be Trek music or not, when it came out.

    And that´s exactly what I am saying the whole time. When SotE came out, all we had was the classic trilogy. SotE may sound a lot like the new trilogy, but certainly not like the old one. That´s where I´m coming from. I bought a SW CD, so I thought I would get SW music and not McNeely´s vision of a SW opera.

    Williams went almost completely over the top with his original score to Superman ... There are just some film's that benifit from big ballsy scores and the Superman series is one of them!

    And still you say the choir was wrong, and SotE is full of choirs.

    Good lord, no! I wanted a competent film score ... Ottman was out of his league, IMHO.

    I like some of his arrangements, especially the Love Theme variation. But there we go again. Taste.
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      CommentAuthorLSH
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    NP: E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial - John Williams

    Sublime.

    cool
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    There will be no argument there. ^^ How boring. wink
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Sorry, but there you are wrong. The sound of Star Trek is the actual opening fanfare composed by Courage. This and nothing else is what created and defines Trek as Trek.


    If you listen to Goldsmith's score to The Motion Picture you will hear its influence on every single film score that came after it as well as the all TV series. While the Courage fanfare is the call of Star Trek it's Goldsmith who REALLY defined and molded it's sound.

    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    This might be the case today, after seven TNG seasons blurring that theme out of TV speakers. But before 1982, there were 79 episodes of classic Trek - and one movie. So what do you think people associated with Trek then?


    Sure... but as I stated above Goldsmith changed the sound of Star Trek forever and is now what people define Star Trek music as.

    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    And then came Horner, opening the second movie with Courage´s iconic fanfare. Now guess again whether people considered that to be Trek music or not, when it came out.


    James Horner complete ignored everything Goldsmith had done in the first film and created something of a swashbuckling adventure score. Now, of course, people consider that Star Trek music but back then it was a shock to the system. The score really is a soaring score which should have been used in a pirate film.

    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    That´s where I´m coming from. I bought a SW CD, so I thought I would get SW music and not McNeely´s vision of a SW opera.


    But Star Wars, especially the music, is operatic! There is no greater example of leitmotif than in opera.


    And still you say the choir was wrong, and SotE is full of choirs.


    I didn't say that choirs as a whole are wrong... far from it... but its use in Superman Returns was unnecessary. Superman doesn't need a choir for extra lift... just use the theme, man... that's all you need.


    I like some of his arrangements, especially the Love Theme variation. But there we go again. Taste.


    Sure... the issue I have is that the variation is also unnecessary. It's a very generic variation to try and modernize the theme unfortunately it cheapens the classic love theme. Funny that Ottman kept the original orchestration in the main and end title yet decided to stupidly change it in the score proper.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  4. Erik Woods wrote
    Filmscoregirl wrote
    I guess it would have been worse if it had not even a hint Williams' original themes. So I'd say we can count our blessings for that at least. smile


    True. That was the best decision they made.

    -Erik-


    I think Christopher Gordon should have done it. And made no reference to the Williams themes. But that's just me. And probably wouldn't have suited Brian Singer's prerogative to revisit the first film's every scene by stealth.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009 edited
    Erik Woods wrote a lot about something that Ralph yet again disagrees with


    If only you could use all this effort and explanatory skills to explain why you don't feel anything for humanoid robots, we might get somewhere. biggrin
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
    Steven wrote
    Erik Woods wrote a lot about something that Ralph yet again disagrees with


    If only you could use all this effort and explanatory skills to explain why you don't feel anything for humanoid robots, we might get somewhere. biggrin


    The difference is that I have a passion for film music.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!