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- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
That should be interesting.
I always regarded Raiders Of The Lost Ark as pretty unassailable for top spot, but I *can* imagine people prefering Last Crusade: the tone in general is lighter, and, shall we say, more public-friendly.
Raiders indeed pretty much defines Indiana as an anti-hero, complete with several unlikeable traits and a checkered past...which makes him all the more human and interesting as far as I'm concerned!
Aside from teh tone though, I think the photography, direction and pacing of Raiders hasn't been matched in any of its sequels. There's not a shot in there that's superfluous, not a scene that takes too long. The ratio thrills-drama is just perfect, and in this way alone resembles that old forgotten genre of the Saturday Serial perfectly!
I won't be watching the Indy trilogy on Dutch TV as the commercial breaks absolutely destroy the pacing, but I'm looking for the DVD box now!
R(re)V: Doctor Who Series Two
Just up to School Reunion -isn't ANthony Head just perfectly cast as the evil, ominous top Krillitane- now, my favourite (The Girl In The Fireplace) up next!
It's interesting, though. When watching The Christmas Invasion, I was struck by the Doctor's moral ambivalence: apparently he has no qualms about destroying an individual (after a warning shot), but blowing up a whole marauding invading slave-trader/pirate ship somehow upsets him greatly!
I never got that: my sympathy was completely with Harriet Jones (Prime Minister, yes we know who you are!) blasting that ship to atoms!
I mean, it's not an enjoyable or good thing to do, but it was necessary! Earth -like the Doctor said- is now attracting attention, and as we've seen time and again: there are monsters out there. Is it so strange then when the monsters attack, that Earth shows and demonstrates some teeth of its own?
Does the Doctor only worry about numbers?
For someone who has pretty much destroyed a complete race (the Daleks), I think he's not the one to lecture us...'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorAnthony
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Steven wrote
I'm always amazed at how The Last Crusade tends to be people's favourite Indy movie? I've always thought it was the weakest of the bunch. I find it gets too goofy in places, especially Marcus's character (
), and I can't say I particularly like the cinematography in the third one! I dunno, it has its moments for sure, but overall it feels tacky - particularly some of the set pieces. I much prefer the first two films, much more what Indiana Jones (for me at least) is all about. (Plus Doom has the best shot in the trilogy of Indy about to whoop some serious boo-tay.)
Exactly, I always thought Last Crusade ruled, but as you mentioned, when I watched it last night it came accross kinda silly...
RAIDERS FOR THE WIN!
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- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Christodoulides wrote
Southall wrote
The Lives of Others
A terrific film.
Agree. How did you like the score James?
Very good! Rather unusual for a film like that, today, but it worked very well. -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Anthony wrote
Steven wrote
I'm always amazed at how The Last Crusade tends to be people's favourite Indy movie? I've always thought it was the weakest of the bunch. I find it gets too goofy in places, especially Marcus's character ( ), and I can't say I particularly like the cinematography in the third one! I dunno, it has its moments for sure, but overall it feels tacky - particularly some of the set pieces. I much prefer the first two films, much more what Indiana Jones (for me at least) is all about. (Plus Doom has the best shot in the trilogy of Indy about to whoop some serious boo-tay.)
Exactly, I always thought Last Crusade ruled, but as you mentioned, when I watched it last night it came accross kinda silly...
RAIDERS FOR THE WIN!
I think Last Crusade is as much a comedy as anything else, and it works on that level, but it's a very different film from the other two which are adventures which have witty moments, rather than plain old slapstick. Judging by the score, Crystal Skull will very much be like Last Crusade. -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Timmer wrote
I seriously recommend Wild China at 8 pm and Russia : A Journey With Jonathan Dimbleby at 10 pm, both on BBC 2 this evening. Both stared last week.
Watched Wild China last week, very good. Like Planet Earth it's very much a "coffee table book" thing rather than attempting any depth, but it's so beautiful it doesn't matter. The score (can't remember who wrote it now) was very good too. Not Fenton-level, but very good. Hope it gets released. -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Southall wrote
Timmer wrote
I seriously recommend Wild China at 8 pm and Russia : A Journey With Jonathan Dimbleby at 10 pm, both on BBC 2 this evening. Both stared last week.
Watched Wild China last week, very good. Like Planet Earth it's very much a "coffee table book" thing rather than attempting any depth, but it's so beautiful it doesn't matter. The score (can't remember who wrote it now) was very good too. Not Fenton-level, but very good. Hope it gets released.
Is it a BBC series?Kazoo -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Southall wrote
Anthony wrote
Steven wrote
I'm always amazed at how The Last Crusade tends to be people's favourite Indy movie? I've always thought it was the weakest of the bunch. I find it gets too goofy in places, especially Marcus's character ( ), and I can't say I particularly like the cinematography in the third one! I dunno, it has its moments for sure, but overall it feels tacky - particularly some of the set pieces. I much prefer the first two films, much more what Indiana Jones (for me at least) is all about. (Plus Doom has the best shot in the trilogy of Indy about to whoop some serious boo-tay.)
Exactly, I always thought Last Crusade ruled, but as you mentioned, when I watched it last night it came accross kinda silly...
RAIDERS FOR THE WIN!
I think Last Crusade is as much a comedy as anything else, and it works on that level, but it's a very different film from the other two which are adventures which have witty moments, rather than plain old slapstick. Judging by the score, Crystal Skull will very much be like Last Crusade.
But... better? -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Bregt wrote
Southall wrote
Watched Wild China last week, very good. Like Planet Earth it's very much a "coffee table book" thing rather than attempting any depth, but it's so beautiful it doesn't matter. The score (can't remember who wrote it now) was very good too. Not Fenton-level, but very good. Hope it gets released.
Is it a BBC series?
Yes. -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Steven wrote
Southall wrote
I think Last Crusade is as much a comedy as anything else, and it works on that level, but it's a very different film from the other two which are adventures which have witty moments, rather than plain old slapstick. Judging by the score, Crystal Skull will very much be like Last Crusade.
But... better?
Now that's pretty tough to judge from the soundtrack album. -
- CommentAuthorBregje
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Martijn wrote
I always regarded Raiders Of The Lost Ark as pretty unassailable for top spot, but I *can* imagine people prefering Last Crusade: the tone in general is lighter, and, shall we say, more public-friendly.
I don't understand why more public-friendly? Because more people like comedy than adventure?
Raiders indeed pretty much defines Indiana as an anti-hero, complete with several unlikeable traits and a checkered past...which makes him all the more human and interesting as far as I'm concerned!
Yes, but I still don't understand now why I liked him so much when I first saw the movies as a child. I really did not remember him like that.
I won't be watching the Indy trilogy on Dutch TV as the commercial breaks absolutely destroy the pacing, but I'm looking for the DVD box now!
Yeah, watching movies on TV sucks... -
- CommentAuthorBregje
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Thinking about the genre 'adventure'... isn't there always some sort of lightheartedness?
Because if not, it's probably drama, war, horror, or whatever, right?
For me the word adventure includes some amount of comedy... I guess.
Just thinking out loud. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Bregje wrote
I don't understand why more public-friendly? Because more people like comedy than adventure?
Partially, but also because Indy becomes more "wholesome" later on: when we are introduced to him in Raiders he's a bit of a loser, really (choses the wrong companions, loses the statue to Belloq, has a sordid history with Marion...) and rather callous.
If anything he reminds of the great film noire anti-heroes, Humphrey Bogart heading the line!
He grows more heroic throughout, and even comedic in the two films following, even reuniting with estranged dear old dad at the end. It's just more the stuff of heroes, and quite a bit more palatable than a two-timing, violent scoundrel.
I still don't understand now why I liked him so much when I first saw the movies as a child. I really did not remember him like that.
Maybe your own sense of morality has become more defined?
As a kid it's easy to ignore (ore even redefine) the grey areas we would frown upon as adults.
When we were kids, Indy was just cool! And that was enough, wasn't it?
RV: Doctor Who, series 2: The Girl In the Fireplace
It's my favourite episode of any of the series I think.
It's cleverly written and quite emotional in execution. Great special effects, beautiful sets and dresses. And it's darn well acted by all involved, with a special nod to the lovely Sophia Miles for her commanding portrayal of Reinette Poison.
The pay-off is an absolute heartbreaker (well, it still gets me every time, even when I know what's coming).
Lovely. Just lovely.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorBregje
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008
Martijn wrote
Maybe your own sense of morality has become more defined?
As a kid it's easy to ignore (ore even redefine) the grey areas we would frown upon as adults.
Yeah... that goes for the rest of the movies as well. Although I remember everything that happens, it's like I didn't notice the violence back then. Some things made me cringe now, while it used to be just 'whoa' I guess. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008 edited
Bregje wrote
Thinking about the genre 'adventure'... isn't there always some sort of lightheartedness?
Often, certainly, though not always.
It just depends on what crowd the movie is catering to, and what mood the director/producers trying to evoke.
A lot of Raiders echoes Treasure Of The Sierra Madre to me, although the latter is far more dramatic and dark in the second half. But it's the fact that our hero really isn't a complete hero, but has faults, quirks and a dark side that accounts for lot of that echo.
Anyway, to me a proper adventure movie balances drama and comedy (relief) in equal measure, to make sure the thrills are real thrills and not "cartoony" ones (because we know those silly nazis can't shoot straight anyway). For proper adventure -to me- there needs to be a clearly dark edge in the main character himself and/or in the antagonist and/or the situation.
That's the only way I can really identify with the trials and tribulations.
When Marion's basket "exploded" in Raiders, I was genuinely shocked, and genuinely felt for Indy. The same for the shooting of Henry Sr. in Last Crusade which completely went against the comedy grain attached to the film so far. Only then the characters and situations became real and tangible to me.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
- CommentTimeMay 18th 2008 edited
Martijn wrote
For someone who has pretty much destroyed a complete race (the Daleks), I think he's not the one to lecture us...
I think that´s exactly what made him a bit more sensitive about the matter. But DW was always very inconsistent about internal logic. For me, DW is absolutely about the sheer non-sense fun, interspersed with some brilliant! (sorry) dramatic moments (and a great score of course). DW can be very silly, and since I made my peace with that, I stopped thinking about logic in that series. For me the whole thing just works better that way.
And I agree on Girl in the Fireplace to be one of its top episodes. Have you seen Torchwood, by the way? -
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008 edited
Watched 2010 this afternoon, I'd forgotten just how good this film was.
I still have the score ( on LP ), and though the electronic stuff works in the film I'm not overly taken with it as a stand alone listen except for the orchestral track ( anyone here remember the track title? was it New Worlds? ) which IMO made the album purchase worth every single damned penny I paid, it really is that good!
p.s. Just in case you didn't know who composed it.....David ShireOn Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentAuthorBregje
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
Watched The Last Crusade and I haven't changed my opinion. This movie made me even more aware of how flat the characters are in the previous two and I would even say Raiders the most of all!
I had more sympathy for Elsa in part III than for Indy in part I, so to speak. Now I don't see any of the set differences you notice or certain shots... when I watch a movie I want to be grabbed by the story and the characters and The Last Crusade did just that. I cannot tell whether Ford acts better in The Last Crusade than in Raiders or that he gets more chance to act because of the story, but I stick to my opinion. Raiders is flat (meaning something is missing).
Also I don't agree that The Last Crusade is rather a comedy and the previous two mainly adventure... I think the movies are not that different in genre, The Last Crusade is adventure for me all the way and the previous two are funny as well. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
Bregje wrote
Watched The Last Crusade and I haven't changed my opinion. This movie made me even more aware of how flat the characters are in the previous two and I would even say Raiders the most of all!
OK. Interesting opinion.
I'd be interested in what you felt was missing from Raiders.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
I find TEMPLE OF DOOM the weakest (and hilarious in a non-pc way), RAIDERS the most gripping as narrative, and LAST CRUSADE the most charming. RAIDERS is preferred film to watch. LAST CRUSADE is the one I like to 'needle-drop' in on from time to time - I'm more likely to watch a scene or four if it's on tv than watch the whole thing.A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorBregje
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
Martijn wrote
Bregje wrote
Watched The Last Crusade and I haven't changed my opinion. This movie made me even more aware of how flat the characters are in the previous two and I would even say Raiders the most of all!
OK. Interesting opinion.
I'd be interested in what you felt was missing from Raiders.
I thought I had just explained that?
Maybe it's hard to explain... I was missing personalities. Ford just saying up his lines and doing stuff, instead of... being someone you can relate to. I don't know. Maybe I'll have to watch again, maybe I had to get into to it a little bit first!
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- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
My faith in Michael has been restored.
There IS good in you!'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorBregje
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
franz_conrad wrote
RAIDERS the most gripping as narrative
I must be missing something indeed...
What about the scores, am I the only one who thinks Last Crusade is the best one of those too??
Love the themes! Listening right now.
I do love the Ark theme but that's it from the first one. I do not have Temple of Doom. -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
For me it's the 'Medallion theme' from RAIDERS that really stands out. The grand reprise of it before the Ark goes nasty on the Nazis is grand and portentous.A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
Martijn wrote
My faith in Michael has been restored.
There IS good in you!
"He's a good boy. He just thinks too much."A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
Bregje wrote
Martijn wrote
I'd be interested in what you felt was missing from Raiders.
I thought I had just explained that?
Oh, sorry. I thought there was more than that.
Interesting, cause I think we learn we may more about Indy's character from Raiders than any of the other films (so far
).
Hmmmm... musically I'd put Raiders and Last Crusade at about the same level. I really love the new themes Williams introduced in Last Crusade (with the Grail theme and the Cross Of Coronado motif standouts), but the introduction of the Raiders' March and the beautiful Marion's theme (on par with Princess Leia's theme as far as I'm concerned) as well as the absolute wealth of wonderful action music really gets me going... BUT I've noted time and again (to Erik's great chagrin ) that I *do* prefer the original LP edit of Raiders Of The Lost Ark, which is a 5 star listen throughout.
While the expanded CD version offers almost twenty minutes more music, it's not all the most interesting material, and especially in the action and mood section tends to sag a little.
Bregje, are you quite sure you don't have Temple Of Doom?
I seem to remember having shared that one with you (many years ago).'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorAnthony
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
Bregje wrote
am I the only one who thinks Last Crusade is the best one of those too??
You are now. I'd seen Last Crusade and million times and I'm kinda bored with it. It's too similar to Raiders in places and for that reason I don't like it as much.
It's almost as if Spielberg was saying ''sorry'' for Doom and just did a re-hash of the first one.
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- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
Well, it's got Nazis.
I *love* Nazis.
'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorBregje
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
Martijn wrote
Oh, sorry. I thought there was more than that.
Interesting, cause I think we learn we may more about Indy's character from Raiders than any of the other films (so far ).
I think it is a good idea that I watch Raiders again, now that I've seen all three in a row. For better comparison. But after that I'll give up!
I also think this is a case of certain personal emotional connection to one of the films, because I'm pretty sure now I had seen Raiders and Temple of doom only once before, while The Last Crusade more often than once and perhaps in my later younger years, so it stuck better or something... plus, I am far more familiar with that score! The kind of knowing it all from start to finish and knowing what was when in the movie.
Bregje, are you quite sure you don't have Temple Of Doom?
I seem to remember having shared that one with you (many years ago).
Not with the I. Maybe under T? I'll take a look. -
- CommentAuthorBregje
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
franz_conrad wrote
For me it's the 'Medallion theme' from RAIDERS that really stands out. The grand reprise of it before the Ark goes nasty on the Nazis is grand and portentous.
Oh... maybe I confuse the ark theme with the medallion theme. Which is where??
Which one is it in the map room? I thought that was the ark theme...
By the way, only yesterday I noticed the theme in the tunnels under Venice where they see the image on the wall. Fun.
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- CommentAuthorBregje
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
Anthony wrote
Bregje wrote
am I the only one who thinks Last Crusade is the best one of those too??
You are now. I'd seen Last Crusade and million times and I'm kinda bored with it. It's too similar to Raiders in places and for that reason I don't like it as much.
It's almost as if Spielberg was saying ''sorry'' for Doom and just did a re-hash of the first one.
I did notice the same font for the credits.
But that's about it.