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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Demetris wrote
    come on man, i don't think trump is a simple matter of agreeing - disagreeing.it's more like universally accepted fact and phenomenon that something is seriously wrong with him wink like another universally accepted fact that bach is awesome, and the father of western harmony and music, nobody disagrees with that, i mean do we know anyone? wink


    and this is exactly why the left lost. they thought their personal views on politics were universally accepted facts and phenomenons.

    there are people who disagree with you. not all of them are retarded.

    I have some friends a few miles down the road who voted for trump. The husband works all day and the wife works at a hospital all night. They have five children, one of whom is entering college, and live on a farm where they have hours and hours of work. Neither of them are retarded. they are good, honest people who happen to have political opinions as well.
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017
    Anyone who feels they can defend Trump at this point has, in my humble estimation, lost the fucking plot. It's not about disagreeing with my politics, it's about recognising the sheer obvious fact that the current president is not fit for office.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Aidabaida wrote
    Demetris wrote
    come on man, i don't think trump is a simple matter of agreeing - disagreeing.it's more like universally accepted fact and phenomenon that something is seriously wrong with him wink like another universally accepted fact that bach is awesome, and the father of western harmony and music, nobody disagrees with that, i mean do we know anyone? wink


    and this is exactly why the left lost. they thought their personal views on politics were universally accepted facts and phenomenons.

    there are people who disagree with you. not all of them are retarded.

    I have some friends a few miles down the road who voted for trump. The husband works all day and the wife works at a hospital all night. They have five children, one of whom is entering college, and live on a farm where they have hours and hours of work. Neither of them are retarded. they are good, honest people who happen to have political opinions as well.


    me? no man, i am nothing in this equation. the whole world think trump is an idiot with well, how to put it lightly...troubled followers. a worrying state of the world today. him, coupled with other lunatics like the N.Korean guy, Putin etc. All in the same league.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017
    And just to clarify, I don't think all Trump voters are stupid. Some very smart people voted for that orange turd. But a considerable number of them surely are. At the very least, they were misinformed and misled.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Aidabaida wrote

    I have some friends a few miles down the road who voted for trump. The husband works all day and the wife works at a hospital all night. They have five children, one of whom is entering college, and live on a farm where they have hours and hours of work. Neither of them are retarded. they are good, honest people who happen to have political opinions as well.


    opinions? without knowing them, hmm let me guesS: they blame obama's liberal 'giveaways' to minorities etc all these years and his social politics, and in fact minorities or immigrants themselves for their hours and hours of work or difficult life or the fact that they have 5 kids to sustain on those difficult jobs?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Demetris wrote

    opinions? without knowing them, hmm let me guesS: they blame obama's liberal 'giveaways' to minorities etc all these years and his social politics, and in fact minorities or immigrants themselves for their hours and hours of work or difficult life or the fact that they have 5 kids to sustain on those difficult jobs?


    no, you're completely wrong.

    why do you assume they must be blaming someone? they don't blame anyone. they haven't said a word of complaint. they are good people, just like most people here. they work because they love their children, and they separate their politics from their life.

    it's close-minded and bigoted to suggest someone you know very little about is racist or xenophobic simply because they disagree with you.
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    because trump's whole parade was a blame game, to blame the 'others' for our problems, get everyone out and make america great again and building walls and crap. why else agree with Trump?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Demetris wrote
    because trump's whole parade was to blame the 'others' for our problems, get everyone out and make america great again. why else agree with Trump?


    because people might agree with his policy ideas? because people might hate hillary clinton's ideas? because people might want a right-wing president? because people on the border might feel a border wall is a good idea? because people might be tired and frustrated with political correctness, and want someone willing to speak his mind? because they believed he'd be tougher on terrorism?

    there's dozens of reasons. personally, I agree with some of Trump's ideas and disagree with others.

    but as long as people think their worldview is a universal phenomenon, there's going to be no progress made towards healing a divided america. both sides need to recognize the other side is just made up of good people who agree on some things and disagree on others.
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    yes, because right-wing, conservatism, blame games, building walls, sending people out of the countries, led to such great results in the past, right? muricans and right-wing europeans ought to open some friggin history books. it's making circles unfortunately.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017
    the whole world is universal nowadays and anymore. what shit you do over there, affects us all. it's global, the whole western world (at least) is one.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Demetris wrote
    yes, because right-wing, conservatism, blame games, building walls, sending people out of the countries, led to such great results in the past, right? muricans ought to open some friggin history books. it's making circles unfortunately.


    yes, conservative ideas have absolutely worked in the past. the fact you think they haven't is concerning. some right-wing ideas have worked, some left-wing ideas have worked, etc.

    since 1970, the percentage of people living in poverty has plummeted 80%. once, 1 in 4 people survived under a dollar a day, now only 1 in 20. this is a direct result of capitalism and less government interference.

    meanwhile, the left-wing idea of communism managed to kill 94 million people in the twentieth century.
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    i am not a communist.

    as for the rest, yeah, Hitler didn't kill anyone either. wink They all fucked up. It's up to us to not repeat the errors of the past, but yeah i don't see that happening anytime soon with all the lunatics that govern us, the half-literate idiots who believe their populist crap agendas and elect them 'because "they talk like us man, to our level and language, not like the suits, dude".
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017
    Demetris wrote

    as for the rest, yeah, Hitler didn't kill anyone either. wink


    don't quite see what you mean here. are you saying Hitler is an example of right-wing ideas going wrong?

    It's up to us to not repeat the errors of the past, but yeah i don't see that happening anytime soon with all the lunatics that govern us.


    sure. the whole system is messed up. attack the inefficiency, attack the bureaucracy, attack the corruption. but please, don't attack the people. these are just good people stuck in a bad system making the best choice they can, and they're not just racist rednecks.
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017
    Yes, God forbid Hitler had anything to do with building walls, and sending people away from their homes because they weren't perfect or arian enough, god forbid he dragged the masses with him in an effort to 'make germany great' wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Demetris wrote
    Yes, God forbid Hitler had anything to do with building walls, and sending people away from their homes because they weren't perfect or arian enough, god forbid he dragged the masses with him in an effort to 'make germany great' wink


    yeah, I'm counting down the days to Trump opening his first death camp for anyone not white. or maybe his invasion of Canada?

    in the meantime, Trump isn't going to be deporting the "Dreamers", and he might not even build the wall.

    Trump may be a nationalist, but he's not a mass-murdering psychopath.
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Different times. More or less the same ideas and ideals, at least on the surface, in populist ways to fuel people. Sending everyone out, building walls, we are the best, make our country great again. But as i said, different eras now. I am not saying he will. Hopefully wink times have changed since then. But they do different ridiculous or illogical things that fuck the world up these days. Anyway, time will tell. Incompetent politicians are everywhere these days, from all the parties right or left. World's in a dangerous state.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017
    Agreed with that!
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Aidabaida wrote
    Agreed with that!


    Ah there we are! Goddamn it those discussions should be head on, in a pub! beer
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Demetris wrote
    Goddamn it those discussions should be head in on, a pub! beer


    I always drink alcohol before I enter the boards. Doesn't everybody do that over here?
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017
    Thor does hehe
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  1. Aidabaida wrote
    Demetris wrote
    yes, because right-wing, conservatism, blame games, building walls, sending people out of the countries, led to such great results in the past, right? muricans ought to open some friggin history books. it's making circles unfortunately.


    yes, conservative ideas have absolutely worked in the past. the fact you think they haven't is concerning. some right-wing ideas have worked, some left-wing ideas have worked, etc.

    since 1970, the percentage of people living in poverty has plummeted 80%. once, 1 in 4 people survived under a dollar a day, now only 1 in 20. this is a direct result of capitalism and less government interference.

    meanwhile, the left-wing idea of communism managed to kill 94 million people in the twentieth century.


    Well, a lot of people down in Europe might not always understand the American (and, I think, English?) definition of conservatism.

    For example. We have a right-wing (like, really) government right now. Their tentpole reform? Giving 500 zloty (approx. 125$) a month to every family having a second child since the kid becomes 18 years old. Conservative?

    At the same time, they're trying to force a complete ban of abortion. They almost let it through, but people literally went to the streets to defend the compromise we have now. They backtracked IN A MINUTE.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    Yes, American conservatism is not the same as in several European countries. While we (unfortunately) elected another term with rightwing government in Norway two days ago, even the most rightwing of the coalition parties is peanuts compared to even the straightest American Republican. Thank God. But it's still extremely annoying.

    Thankfully, France managed to topple the rightwing orientation that we see all over the world in their latest election, but just barely. I had hoped we could do the same, since we're a liberal, socialdemocratic country. But alas...
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote

    Well, a lot of people down in Europe might not always understand the American (and, I think, English?) definition of conservatism.

    For example. We have a right-wing (like, really) government right now. Their tentpole reform? Giving 500 zloty (approx. 125$) a month to every family having a second child since the kid becomes 18 years old. Conservative?

    At the same time, they're trying to force a complete ban of abortion. They almost let it through, but people literally went to the streets to defend the compromise we have now. They backtracked IN A MINUTE.


    agreed, that's not the type of conservatism I'm talking about.

    i'm personally for the conservative use of power. i think the government needs to be as small as possible, and i think they do almost everything badly, from education to postal services. (especially in America!)

    the real problem with discussing this stuff is the labels!

    labels make things so confusing. politicians are good at using labels to make something seem like something it is not.

    i like how Thomas Sowell puts it

    The words they choose for the things they are for or against make it easy to decide whether to be for or against those things.

    Are you for or against "social justice"? A no-brainer. Who is going to be for injustice?

    What about "a living wage"? Who wants people not to have enough money to live on?

    Then there is "affordable housing" and "affordable healthcare." who would want people to be unable to afford to put a roof over their heads or unable to go to a doctor when they are sick?

    In real life, the devil is in the details. But the whole point of political rhetoric is to make it unnecessary for you to have to go into the specifics before taking sides. You don't need to know any economics to be in favor of "a living wage", or "affordable housing." In fact the less economics you know, the more you can believe in such things.
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  2. That's another thing with Polish conservatism. It's usually about a "big state". Our previous ruling party which was what could be called moderate Republicans in American terms, if not even mild conservative, was very much for giving the local government (we're not a federal state, therefore we can't talk about even a relative autonony politically, but they do get part of the tax revenue and they do manage their budgets autonomically) as much power as constitutionally possible. Now the ruling party is centralizing everything again.

    That said, probably nowhere in continental Europe you can have fully private health care. The whole thing with Obamacare having no support with the Republicans, even if Obama backed down on his original idea, was baffling to us as privatizing health care completely here is something downright unimaginable.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017
    PawelStroinski wrote
    That's another thing with Polish conservatism. It's usually about a "big state". Our previous ruling party which was what could be called moderate Republicans in American terms, if not even mild conservative, was very much for giving the local government (we're not a federal state, therefore we can't talk about even a relative autonony politically, but they do get part of the tax revenue and they do manage their budgets autonomically) as much power as constitutionally possible. Now the ruling party is centralizing everything again.

    That said, probably nowhere in continental Europe you can have fully private health care. The whole thing with Obamacare having no support with the Republicans, even if Obama backed down on his original idea, was baffling to us as privatizing health care completely here is something downright unimaginable.


    and would you say you guys are happy with your health-care situation?

    serious question because i've heard stuff from both sides but rarely from a local.
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017
    Steven wrote
    Anyone who feels they can defend Trump at this point has, in my humble estimation, lost the fucking plot. It's not about disagreeing with my politics, it's about recognising the sheer obvious fact that the current president is not fit for office.


    we agree Steven
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2017
    As I've stated before with Thorthe health care situation is a disaster. Not sure what is going to happen to me.
    listen to more classical music!
  3. Aidabaida wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    That's another thing with Polish conservatism. It's usually about a "big state". Our previous ruling party which was what could be called moderate Republicans in American terms, if not even mild conservative, was very much for giving the local government (we're not a federal state, therefore we can't talk about even a relative autonony politically, but they do get part of the tax revenue and they do manage their budgets autonomically) as much power as constitutionally possible. Now the ruling party is centralizing everything again.

    That said, probably nowhere in continental Europe you can have fully private health care. The whole thing with Obamacare having no support with the Republicans, even if Obama backed down on his original idea, was baffling to us as privatizing health care completely here is something downright unimaginable.


    and would you say you guys are happy with your health-care situation?

    serious question because i've heard stuff from both sides but rarely from a local.


    If you get in, it happens to be quite good (as our doctors are so well-trained that I've seen quite a few Canadians studying medicine in Warsaw), but the biggest issue is just the huge queues which make you for example wait 2 years to get to a thyroid specialist or something like that.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2017 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote

    If you get in, it happens to be quite good (as our doctors are so well-trained that I've seen quite a few Canadians studying medicine in Warsaw), but the biggest issue is just the huge queues which make you for example wait 2 years to get to a thyroid specialist or something like that.


    so some good and some bad. (like most things)
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  4. Aidabaida wrote
    so some good and some bad. (like most things)


    And that's the truth right there. There is good and bad to every system, every solution. Every political ideology has its pros and cons. Yet it seems like the whole world is in political gridlock, every side hanging doggedly to their arguments like they're the only ones with any right on their side, when the truth is that these issues that have been fought over for so long have been fought over for so long precisely because both sides have valid arguments. I think that it is often most likely that the best course of action would be somewhere in the middle of the two extremes, but people are less and less willing to compromise these days.

    And one of the saddest things about it to me is that most people's point of view is not informed by facts. I'll bet 95% of Americans (and probably people in other places, though I can't speak for anyone else) don't hold to their political perspectives as a result of serious and critical study, but as a result of where they were raised, their culture, and the people around them. We get into our echo chambers and hear only people who agree with us and we are convinced that everyone we're hearing must be right. And when we hear someone say something contrary to that, we jump all over them. Conservatives won't believe anything unless it comes from conservative media sources. Liberals are the same. Both view the opposing media sources as dishonest or incompetent. I wish there were a centrist party in the U.S.--a party that would value practical compromises, whose members were well-informed and thoughtful. But that wouldn't be any fun, now would it? No, we'll just keep calling each other commies and fascists, idiots and heathens, lazy and backwards. We'll just demonize the other side and keep viewing every issue as black and white, and paint everyone on the opposing side as if they were the all the worst possible examples of their ilk.

    I'll keep doing my small part to try to make the world a better place, but I've pretty much given up hope on having a measured and intelligent political debate in my country.

    Wow, that post got really negative there at the end. Sorry about that. Here's a happy face to lighten the mood: cheesy