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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2009 edited
    lp wrote
    shocked Where did this discussion come from?

    It transferred from the NP thread. biggrin
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2009 edited
    Scribe wrote
    lp wrote
    shocked Where did this discussion come from?

    It transferred from the NP thread. biggrin


    Found it. Agreed fully with the these comments

    Scribe wrote
    If he doesn't care, why would he bother to write a full, 25+ note theme for Wolverine? (in addition to several subthemes...I swear there is more thematic material in his score than in Kamen's and Ottman's scores combined). If he didn't care, surely he could have written a vague four-note motif thingy like Djawadi did for Iron Man?


    Scribe wrote
    The only sign of "laziness" that I see in his work is his re-use of cues in sequels (Narnia, Shrek)



    I'm also guilty of being so lazy that I'm cutting and pasting your comments into my post.
  1. Scribe wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Scribe wrote
    Musicianship? Composers are not musicians, unless we're talking about Brian Tyler. At least HGW conducts, which is a lot more than most of his generation does.


    Musicianship is a quality that characterizes (or not) everyone who deals with music, from sound engineers to instrument performers. Composers are not musicians made me giggle to tell you the truth. Every composer (or at least a GOOD composer) is a musician. Brian Tyler also happens to be a performer as well.


    Well, now we're just arguing definitions. What is your definition of musicianship, then? And how does it apply or not apply to Harry?

    Christodoulides wrote

    Instrumentation? I can't speak for the technicalities here...if I could, I'd be a composer myself. But HGW's music has gotten a lot denser and more complex in recent years. If there is something technically wrong with his instrumentations, why don't you share what you know? Or is it above the comprehension of non-musically-trained people?


    There isn't anything in there. Poor, blatant same ol' electronics' bed each and every time. Drone. Kingdom of Heaven -on the contrary, had a lot of work in this area. I am sure you can tell the difference.


    No, I can't tell such a drastic difference with KoH versus Narnia or Wolverine. I guess that makes me a musical idiot? huh? Granted, there are a lot more electronics in Wolverine than KoH, but that only makes sense given the film genre difference. But let's focus on the purely orchestral parts...technically, what is HGW doing wrong that makes him so lazy? Concrete examples, please. At least make an effort to explain yourself to the layperson, even if you think I won't understand.




    Development and coherence? I hear more in Caspian and Wolverine than I hear in his older works.


    Mmmkay..


    Must I point to specific example? Perhaps I will grab some clips sometime and point out all the thematic development in Caspian and Wolverine.




    Musical meaning? If that's not a category of personal preference, I don't know what is...


    What meaning does continuous dry drone on CD have, other than escort some film on screen? Where's the structure? The coherence in the musical ideas? The AIM of the music? What seperates MUSIC from SOUND DESIGN?


    What on earth are you listening to that you can categorize any of HGW's recent scores as "continuous dry drone"??? There's an abundance of melodic ideas in every cue of every single one of HGW's scores. Name any cue in any HGW score and I will give you an example...and if I can't, I will surrender the point.


    Matt, half of Phone Booth is pure ambient, not really drone, but without much melodic idea.

    Prince Caspian is much more coherent score than Lion, Witch and Wardrobe and except singular cues, I tend to prefer Prince Caspian to the first Narnia score.

    KoH is a VERY coherent and well-developed score.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2009
    Ok, I definitely agree that some of his older thriller scores like Phone Booth and The Replacement Killers are DRONES. Was definitely exaggerating a little by saying "every single one" of his scores. But definitely every single one of his recent scores.
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2009
    Scribe wrote
    If he doesn't care, why would he bother to write a full, 25+ note theme for Wolverine?


    More doesn't always mean better...

    Daaaaaaa Dum! wink

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  2. True, the Wolverine theme is also a Zimmer rip-off, which makes it a big step back, since HGW developed a rather distinct style.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  3. Scribe wrote
    Ok, I definitely agree that some of his older thriller scores like Phone Booth and The Replacement Killers are DRONES. Was definitely exaggerating a little by saying "every single one" of his scores. But definitely every single one of his recent scores.


    And Phone Booth is the same year his great score to Veronica Guerin is from, so it quite doesn't work this way, I'm afraid. Deja Vu is a step back from KoH, stuff like that, even if I LOVE the theme to Deja Vu.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2009
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Scribe wrote
    Ok, I definitely agree that some of his older thriller scores like Phone Booth and The Replacement Killers are DRONES. Was definitely exaggerating a little by saying "every single one" of his scores. But definitely every single one of his recent scores.


    And Phone Booth is the same year his great score to Veronica Guerin is from, so it quite doesn't work this way, I'm afraid. Deja Vu is a step back from KoH, stuff like that, even if I LOVE the theme to Deja Vu.


    A step back? The two films are so drastically different that I hardly think that any more can be gained by comparing them than can be gain by trying to compare Zimmer and John Williams!

    I think the Wolverine theme is squarely within HGW's established style, even if it does have more of a power anthem feel. It fits the character excellently, and its development throughout the score is fabulous. I'm listening to it now and it doesn't even get a full quote until halfway through the album (with six partial quotes before)!
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2009
    PawelStroinski wrote
    True, the Wolverine theme is also a Zimmer rip-off, which makes it a big step back, since HGW developed a rather distinct style.


    HGW has always had one foot still in the 90s Zimmer/power anthem stuff. I mean, take a look at his scores for the Metal Gear Solid games.
  4. But then again his themes for Deja Vu, Veronica Guerin, Kingdom of Heaven or even Narnia have nothing to do with the MV style.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2009
    I won't argue with you about the first three, but the main "heroic" theme for Narnia is pure, vintage power anthem tongue
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
  5. It's a power anthem, but more classically inclined than Zimmer inspired, I think.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2009 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    But then again his themes for Deja Vu, Veronica Guerin, Kingdom of Heaven or even Narnia have nothing to do with the MV style.


    I didn't say he had two feet in it... smile

    What makes it a Zimmer rip off? I mean, he was part of the MV movement back then, so wouldn't the correct term be "influenced" or "inspired" like you've so said?
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2009 edited
    IMO going from KOH to Deja Vu doesn't mean that it's a step back. Why can't it be a part of his skill set, his style, writing scores featuring strong electronica components? Cause a HGW electronica score is very different from, say, a Paul Haslinger electronica score or even something like Atli Ovarsson's Vantage Point...
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2009 edited
    lp wrote
    IMO going from KOH to Deja Vu doesn't mean that it's a step back. Why can't it be a part of his skill set, his style, writing scores featuring strong electronica components? Cause a HGW electronica score is very different from, say, a Paul Haslinger electronica score or even something like Atli Ovarsson's Vantage Point...


    Not to me; look, i'm bored with this discussion;

    Once again, last time:

    Smilla's Sense of Snow and The whole wide world: dark, moody and despite being early and raw material for Harry, still they were quite interesting.

    # Antz (1998)
    # The Replacement Killers (1998)
    # The Borrowers (1997)
    Fun, fun, fun. Not the greatest fan of these scores i must confess, but still they have a lot of things going on in them for someone to care.

    Enemy of the State: Pure unashamed, loud MV powerhouse, with themes, action, nice stuff.

    Chicken Run: the apex; with Powell, they created one of the most influential and important scores of the genre.

    Shrek scores, 1st one was great, 2nd not so good, 3rd totally careless and on auto pilot; notice a pattern?

    Spy Game (2001): the apex of his electronica scores: passionate, with dense thematic development, beautiful sound scapes, inventive and very fresh, this score has certainly set its mark in the electronica / ambient modern film scores for this kind of movies and he hasn't surpassed it since.

    Passionada: overlooked little romantic gem; melody and heart

    Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas: not particularly original, but still an orchestral powerhouse that was very well constructed and carried some very good themes.

    Veronica Guerin : the Spy game sound, only more mature, developed and depressing. A very good score for a very good movie. The fusion of the Irish musical traits with the western-type film music orchestra is simply spot-on and the themes are impressively inspired.

    The Rundown:
    Here started the…rundown. Endless percussive beats one after another, something not going very well with this score but it went under the radar anyway.

    Man on Fire: essentially SPY GAME 2, very well performed and still imaginative, with lots of work in it, and melancholic themes. Nice soundscapes, lots of stuff to keep you interested, especially the latin-influenced sorrowful songs

    Team America: World Police: FUN

    Around this point comes crap like Bridget Jones: The Edge of Reason which to be fair, very few composers manage to deliver anything of importance for this kind of movies, but also the very mediocre Metal Gear Solid 3 in comparison with the far superior previous 2 installments in the series.

    Kingdom of Heaven: a very, VERY worthy dramatic orchestral score of the grand scale that was heavily chopped on the CD editing process, but still when experienced in the movie or – especially, through the double CD recording sessions’ version, makes for a satisfying listening experience.

    Domino: And the period that interests us: Domino, is a noisy brother to Man on Fire and Spy Game, only it lacks the passion those 2 had, it “stinks” auto pilot, with some very few exceptional cues in it.

    The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe: Interesting score if you isolate it, but its time-long value is small; the sequel The Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian, essentially an uninspired redux on the former, simply prove that he was the wrong choice for the films.

    Seraphim Falls, completely careless score, same goes for Flushed Away and particularly the aptly titled Déjà vu, i.e. what Man on Fire and Spy Game were but without the slightest bit of even trying to do something new with the sound, reinvent it a bit, plus the themes sound weary.

    The Number 23: uninteresting, drone on auto-pilot. Listen to anything in the genre by Christopher Young, for one, and then compare.

    Gone Baby Gone: although nothing particularly groundbreaking, still after a bunch of careless scores that preceded, this one showed a fresh premise all around, with sensitive melodic writing and esoteric soundscapes, and of course very little to no drone.

    Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots: a massive main theme which sets the mood and then what? You guessed right, everyone was either bored or the money ended so what now? The same synth soundscapes, no structure, no themes, no nothing; just endless chord processions one into another, with the same electronic fx and sounds he was using since Spy Game. Of course here you can’t really blame just him since a bunch of other composers seem to be involved with it…anyway.

    X-Men Origins: Wolverine: one simplistic RC / Zimmer-ish theme, then drone. Inspiration and desire to do something with your ensemble, your time and your music gone out the window. Listen to how he USES time and musicians in Spy Game, Veronica Guerin / Kingdom of heaven and compare with the wasted space here.

    The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3: :sigh: same as above.

    NOTICE A PATTERN YET? I am not saying he’s incompetent so please put your passionate fanboyisms aside and for once, let’s just talk calmly and with arguments. I won’t analyze what he does further ‘cause 1) I already invested too much time onto this and 2) you can’t really talk THAT much about ambient synth chords weaving into each other, can you? Like I said, I am not suggesting he can’t do it; he proved in the past than when he wants, he can do some really good stuff and after all, in this movie genre he’s usually working in (modern thrillers and stuff) and especially amidst the composers that “follow” him in the RC studios, he proved he can be very influential. But this current period of him reminds me of James Newton Howard similarly-uninfluenced and unengaged auto-pilot scores that he launched starting in 2005 with the The Interpreter (and the exception of KING KONG) and ending in 2007 with the very surprisingly quality score that was I Am Legend). Only HGW seems very tired by the whole thing and needs to either take a break from this, or start saying NO to some projects and reinventing his agenta a bit more, with stuff he hasn’t tried before. So relax, and see the obvious. Don’t feel constantly attacked and coming around with the same arguments all over again and skipping questions, ‘cause it’s getting boring.

    As for what musicianship is, it's one's ability to handle and manipulate EVERYTHING MUSICAL, from instrumentation to compositional techniques (such as (for instance) the fugue, contrapuntal writing, standard western harmony or even post-modern techniques like electronic music (with its academic meaning) experimental serialism and stuff like that), to arrangements and melodic / thematic manipulation, and from musical instruments’ specific sound capabilities and ways of performance up to knowing, apprehending and handling the various musical styles from Renaissance Music to Dance, r’n’b, trance, hip – hop rap, techno, jazz and metal etc etc, AS TOOLS TO CREATE MEANINGFUL MUSICAL COMPOSITIONS. It has nothing to do with being able to perform and play an instrument yourself; that’s an instrument performer, an instrument player’s job. The latter can be a musican as well, but a musician can also be one who doesn’t play an instrument himself.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2009
    And so in the end, it is all subjective. The words that become the lynchpins of your arguments are all subjective:

    interesting, fun, beautiful, fresh, heart, mature, uninspired, careless, "weary" themes, "esoteric" soundscapes, bored, simplistic, drone, tired.

    The first half sounds like it came from the Varese library of score descriptions. And the second half sounds like the opposite end of the same spectrum. Lots of descriptive words with no objective facts to back them up.

    "Meaningful" music? Who decides what makes "meaningful" music? The listener. The audience. You are free to be bored by Harry's music. But that doesn't mean you can judge it meaningless, or judge the composer's level of passion, because the music is obviously meaningful to some listeners, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2009 edited
    The only reason we are having the discussion is because you asked; but you reject every argument i bring you no matter; first it was too technical, then it's "varese-like" (how about the simple but descriptive "thematic / melodic development and constant melodic movement VS the one simple theme and then synth drone and same electronic loops since SPY GAME"? Too "varese"for you?)

    I wasn't bored with Harry's music when he started and for quite a long time after that; i am bored now because he music evidently changed; the discussion has no meaning in it though if I am going to sit down and write a bunch of stuff and get greeted with the usual stubborn "yeah but that's YOUR opinion and YOU say so, it's not what's RIGHT çause i like him and i like what he writes no matter what" These are your arguments?

    Anyway, i'm bored with it; you can listen to anything you want, nobody told you not to and i have absolutely no problem with you, or your musical tastes; but don't ask for further debates if you aren't prepared first to listen to what the other party has to say.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2009
    Ah, ad hominem. Now I'm bored too. I think we understand each other's points of view as much as we are ever going to.
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2009 edited
    I understand where you're is coming from Matt. You're an HGW fan, and enjoying someone's music is never a bad thing (not that anyone has expressed otherwise). But I'm pretty much in agreement with a lot of Demetris' opinions/factoids (whichever word you want to use) on all those scores he mentioned.

    There are, IMO, far more better composers worthy of such long discussions! But it always seems to be the composers that create some sort of controversy which get the most attention simply because the GREAT composers most people just end up agreeing with each other! biggrin (And if they don't, they know they will be hunted down and killed.)
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2009
    Steven, very good point there in the last lines!
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
    MovieScore Magazine reports HGW will be scoring Tony Scott's upcoming film Unstoppable.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
    Let's count together how long it'll be 'till Marc Streitenfield scores the Tony Scott gigs as well! wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
    I reckon Marc is now the composer of choice for Ridley so he'll stay that way. tongue
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
    oh dear rolleyes
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
    And what is this Tony Scott's hard-on with Denzel Washington? Does he have to front each and every movie he does in his career?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2009
    Christodoulides wrote
    And what is this Tony Scott's hard-on with Denzel Washington? Does he have to front each and every movie he does in his career?


    Maybe they like working with each other? There were so many movies that John Woo had done with Chow Yun Fat before he came over to the U.S.
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2009
    I happened to hear the Wolverine theme again (featured in "I'll Find My Way", last track on the album) while the iPod was shuffing, and I had to put that on repeat and repeat and repeat. Very memorable theme. I hope he'll be able to come back to the inevitable sequel.
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2009
    lp wrote
    I happened to hear the Wolverine theme again (featured in "I'll Find My Way", last track on the album) while the iPod was shuffing, and I had to put that on repeat and repeat and repeat. Very memorable theme. I hope he'll be able to come back to the inevitable sequel.


    Finally, someone besides me says something good about this score smile beer
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2009
    Scribe wrote
    lp wrote
    I happened to hear the Wolverine theme again (featured in "I'll Find My Way", last track on the album) while the iPod was shuffing, and I had to put that on repeat and repeat and repeat. Very memorable theme. I hope he'll be able to come back to the inevitable sequel.


    Finally, someone besides me says something good about this score smile beer


    I don't have a problem with Harry's scores like some people do here on the board. For example, I actually enjoys lots of stuff from Prince Caspian. Tracks like "Raid on the Castle" is a great example of Harry ability to take existing thematic material and improving it. I love his darker spin on a previously light musical work. The score has been said to be a retread of the first one, but this is simply not the case.

    Anyway, I enjoyed Wolverine. Based on the temp music, it's amazing how Harry managed to create something more coherent than what it could have been.
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2009 edited
    lp wrote
    I don't have a problem with Harry's scores like some people do here on the board. For example, I actually enjoys lots of stuff from Prince Caspian. Tracks like "Raid on the Castle" is a great example of Harry ability to take existing thematic material and improving it. I love his darker spin on a previously light musical work. The score has been said to be a retread of the first one, but this is simply not the case.


    I agree. The only part that I feel could be classified as retread are the tracked pieces from film 1 in "Sorcery & Sudden Vengeance" and "Battle at Aslan's How." I don't mind them in the film, but it seems pointless on the album. But then I think, John Williams did practically the same thing with Star Wars' TIE Fighter battle music showing up on Return of the Jedi...
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!