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  1. That's what, more or less awkwardly, I tried to point out all the time since yesterday. The question is what leads to radicalization and why. While the social aspect is very much important there is a certain type of character/personality that is easily manipulated. In terms of radical Jihadism (let's name it the way it should be called, terms are very important, especially today). I am very fascinated with recruiting. What are the people who are bound to be recruited looking for? Of course since 1940s/1950s we do know quite a bit about the mechanisms of dehumanization.

    So it's not just the social issues, as relevant as I always point out. It's also about the individuals who are susceptible to recruitment, radicalization and things like that. The problem is that maybe radicalization itself will become a PC term?

    What I meant with secularism, French revolution and Communism is that religion itself is not the only thing that can be radicalized. I probably did use "secularism" wrong, though I do think that Communism took some anti-spiritual ideas to absurd levels and that could easily, in its Maoist and Leninist form take a dangerous route.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    Martijn wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    If it's what I think it is, the Army is using their constitutional powers against Erdogan. Which means they started considering him going into a religious state.


    It already failed.
    I am tempted to say "unfortunately", because Erdogan and his cronies are setting up to become a deeply disturbing theocratic power, squarely grounded in Islam, with a deep irreverence and disdain for western values (while, of course, still lobbying to get European money), human rights, freedom of speech and minorities.

    But the Turkish army since long hasn't been the keeper of democracy and the constitution, and rumours are that the coup was staged by Erdogan's erstwhile spritual competitor Gulen, so that would just exchange one theocrat for another.

    But while I usually frown on conspiracy theories, the whole thing was over SO fast, that I am very tempted to think this was at least *facilitated* by Erdogan to give him the room he needs to start pruning the armed forces of elements unsympathetic towards him.

    Most disturbing is the massive outpour of support on the streets for Erdogan, suggesting most of the population is supporting this very dangerous, very dictatorial man. In the Netherlands Turks even went on to the streets, demanding our prime minister speak out to support Erdogan and even going so far as to physically attack reporters who had the "audacity" to question Erdogan's record on human rights.

    Looks like the man has his supporters in such an iron vise that even abroad his 'citizens' (you can retain your Turkish citizenship even when you're born Dutch as long as your parents are Turkish) who never even have set FOOT in Turkey, are perfectly happy to act as a kind of militant 5th column. slant


    Turks are scam of the earth. No biggie, already known.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    A Greek expressing dislike for Turks.
    Imagine my shock.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  2. Demetris wrote
    Martijn wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    If it's what I think it is, the Army is using their constitutional powers against Erdogan. Which means they started considering him going into a religious state.


    It already failed.
    I am tempted to say "unfortunately", because Erdogan and his cronies are setting up to become a deeply disturbing theocratic power, squarely grounded in Islam, with a deep irreverence and disdain for western values (while, of course, still lobbying to get European money), human rights, freedom of speech and minorities.

    But the Turkish army since long hasn't been the keeper of democracy and the constitution, and rumours are that the coup was staged by Erdogan's erstwhile spritual competitor Gulen, so that would just exchange one theocrat for another.

    But while I usually frown on conspiracy theories, the whole thing was over SO fast, that I am very tempted to think this was at least *facilitated* by Erdogan to give him the room he needs to start pruning the armed forces of elements unsympathetic towards him.

    Most disturbing is the massive outpour of support on the streets for Erdogan, suggesting most of the population is supporting this very dangerous, very dictatorial man. In the Netherlands Turks even went on to the streets, demanding our prime minister speak out to support Erdogan and even going so far as to physically attack reporters who had the "audacity" to question Erdogan's record on human rights.

    Looks like the man has his supporters in such an iron vise that even abroad his 'citizens' (you can retain your Turkish citizenship even when you're born Dutch as long as your parents are Turkish) who never even have set FOOT in Turkey, are perfectly happy to act as a kind of militant 5th column. slant


    Turks are scam of the earth. No biggie, already known.

    Okay, that is just outright racist.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016 edited
    So yeah, the easy racist card again. While nobody is sure what's worse because we have to choose between two possibly equal bads: A dictator with civil clothing, Erdogan on one side, an egomaniac prick who's proven countless times that accounts and cares for nobody in the world (country or leader) or even inside his country than himself, ego and ideas, or a dictator with a military uniform, i.e. the military portion against him taking over the country. That's a given, 'cause none of the solutions is ideal for the rest of the world. We all follow with patience and we'll see where it will take us.

    But we largely and mostly recognize the cancer of the world that is Islam and we mostly all agree something has to be done about it, but when a dictator with an ego bigger than the world itself, who has largely islamized his country and constantly pushes his own Islamic state basically, during the years of his stubborn and un-democratic reign so far, gets such a support from the vast majority of his people and the social media he himself so often shuts down, fights, controls and censors all the time, people who blindly go out on his call and get killed in the streets for him, and kill stupid young boy-soldiers who blindly follow the army's idiotic notion and orders, then it's a no touchy subject eh?

    So yeah we all see each day that Islam and dictators are the cancer of the modern world, but with the exception of our dear Turks then. People who basically support such a dictator and the rest of the future movement and freedoms restrictions he will further place on them, the clearing up and killing of all of his enemies and people who disagree with him, further blows on democracy that will surely follow from Erdogan after all of this. He moved the strings and the mindless puppets danced for him and his biggest show and ego-revalidation to date. So we shall put an asterisk for the exception each time we talk about the evils of Islam then wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    Turkish President Annoyed He Has to Pretend to Believe in Democracy Again

    “I’ve spent the last 13 fucking years pretending to believe in democracy. I thought that now that I had banned all opposition groups and shut down all critical newspapers, I could finally give up the charade,” an annoyed Erdogan reportedly told his senior advisors. “But then these assholes decide to stage a military coup, and I have to go around saying, ‘Oh, I love democracy! Let’s let the people decide!”


    biggrin
  3. That Erdogan is a human shitstain and that people are idiots to support him is beyond a doubt; this does not, however, make an entire nation of 80 million people "scum of the earth".
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    Kinda like the notallmuslism arguments. Similar logic.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    Edmund, the hatred (yes, it's on that level) between Greeks and Turks (and it's completely mutual!) goes back hundreds of years and is based on a military and political enmosity that stretches centuries. While I think there's very little in it that is actually constructive or makes sense, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with 'racism'.

    If you compare it to anything, compare it to the German-French relation in the 19th century.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  4. Countryism, then. Same principle.

    And no, D, it's most decidedly not like "not all Muslims", because you have no choice to be born Turkish, whereas you do have a choice not to be a Muslim.

    And even then, making that choice and going against the way of life that is the only thing you have ever been taught, have ever known, requires an incredible force of will. And - more importantly - a huge amount of perspective and information that a lot of Muslims simply have no realistic way of getting at (because they live under a restrictive culture). The issue is far too complicated for us to deal with by simply pointing fingers at a vast crowd of people and saying "you're all idiots for believing what the Quran says".

    In other words, blanket statements - both of the "all Turks are scum" and the "not all Muslims..." variety - get us nowhere. But at least one of those statements isn't driven by malice.
  5. Edmund, to Martijn's argument I can only add that Demetris is a Cypriot Greek. This makes it even more edgy.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  6. Is that an excuse? Wouldn't that be like someone Jewish having a hatred for all Germans?
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016 edited
    It's indeed EXACTLY like that.

    EDIT: no, wait. It isn't.
    Because the Germans don't hate the Jews in return.

    The historic hatred between the Greeks and the Turks is completely mutual.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  7. I wonder what will happen to the coup soldiers that are going through asylum processing right now. Will Greece actually want to piss Erdogan off and grant them asylum?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    That would be kinda awesome, really.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    Demetris wrote
    But we largely and mostly recognize the cancer of the world that is Islam and we mostly all agree something has to be done about it...


    Unless we're talking about leftist media... and fucking hippies. God I fucking hate hippies so much. They're more afraid of being 'racist' than they are of a truly racist (and barbaric) ideology. Idiots.

    Anyway. Whatever. I need some wine...
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    Martijn wrote
    So at this point it doesn't look like a clearly organised attack by an IS cell, but rather a thoroughly disenfranchised, dangerous individual grabbing on to the tool of Islamism flouted liberally through IS and their ilk to justify indiscriminate mass murder.


    So much for that theory.
    Looks like a cell after all.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  8. However, it could have been true for the Orlando attacker.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    Martijn wrote
    Martijn wrote
    So at this point it doesn't look like a clearly organised attack by an IS cell, but rather a thoroughly disenfranchised, dangerous individual grabbing on to the tool of Islamism flouted liberally through IS and their ilk to justify indiscriminate mass murder.


    So much for that theory.
    Looks like a cell after all.


    As i said when it broke out: Muslim Love over France.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    PawelStroinski wrote
    However, it could have been true for the Orlando attacker.


    It could be true for every Islamic terrorist attack ever committed, and it still wouldn't negate the underlying ideology. And though other factors and personal motives give rise to the specificities of these atrocities -and ISIS will attract at least a few disenfranchised psychopaths- if there's a thread to follow, we should take every opportunity to pull on it - especially in the face of leftist obscurantism under its ingratiating guise of virtue.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    (Some of the specificities I should say. Islam is very specific on how to treat kafirs.)
  9. You know, I hate to be the one who invokes Godwin's law, but the more I hear Erdogan bray on about using this as an opportunity to "cleanse the army", the more I'm reminded of a certain fire at the Reichstag in 1933... slant
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2016
    You're not alone in seeing the parallels.
    It was quite disconcerting to see how many MINUTES it took him to come up with the list of THOUSANDS of apparently 'dissident' judges....
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2016
    Yet he gets the vast, mass majority of Turkish people support.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2016
    Martijn wrote
    That would be kinda awesome, really.


    No chance. Our politicians, both here and Cyprus, during the last 10 years or so are the worst of a kind. Completely weak, non-decisive, always skip taking hard decisions, complete pussies. They are just in for the fat checks and to feed their own on expense of the state funds and the people. Complete corruption and lies. And of course we, keep accepting this. But as proven, with the recent rise of populism and mass manipulation with Brexit campaign etc, we are not the only ones sadly.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2016
    Demetris wrote
    Martijn wrote
    That would be kinda awesome, really.


    No chance.

    Yes, the first bulletin I reade today ahd the Greek foreign minister declaring they wouldn't be granted asylum.
    However, now with Erdogan completing his purges and uncannily easily starting to reintroduce the death penalty in Turkey, the tone is becoming less placating.

    Honestly, I hope they will be granted a mercy stay.
    A forced return will be akin to a death sentence. [WARNING: graphic and deeply disturbing images]
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2016 edited
    Well, I've basically been living in a bubble for the last few weeks (with little to no internet at various locations), getting tidbits about the Nice and Turkey events sometimes days after it happened -- and basically just headlines without any detail. Read up a bit now that I've returned home. Horrible stuff (well, Nice was horrible, Turkey was more of a dramatic surprise). I will not condemn Islam as a religion like so many of you do with seeming ease, but I will condemn extremism in any form or shape.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2016 edited
    Thor wrote
    I will not condemn Islam as a religion like so many of you do with seeming ease, but I will condemn extremism in any form or shape.


    Because there's a lot to condemn. Do you really think Sharia is a good idea? Do you know anything about the inherent political and totalitarian nature of Islam? There are MUSLIMS who condemn this shit, the people we should be listening to.

    It's quite simple, yet people like you persist in burying your heads in the sand: Islam is a set of ideas, largely dangerous; Muslims are people, largely benign; many, however, are not because of the specific tenets of their faith that are still being taken literally. It hasn't yet (and may never) had its reformation like Christianity. There's very little theological room to reinterpret the texts, much of which is sexist, xenophobic and warmongering - all of which is the perfect word of Allah (or in the case of the Hadiths, the actions of the "ideal man" Muhammed). This is why Islam is a problem (unless, like you, you live under a rock). Absorb that to your bones, or at least stop admonishing people for pointing it out.

    Also, not all extremism is equally worthy of contempt. An extreme Jain or Buddha is far less likely to behead unbelievers. Ideas matters, where they come from matters, and it's why I don't blame ALL religion.. I blame specific religious ideas and those who act on them do to harm.

    It's quite simple.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2016
    Did I say that Islam was immune to reform? Of course not. There are many parts of that religion that would need some serious re-evaluation and updating.
    I am extremely serious.
  10. Considering that recently there have been stronger and stronger voices for a reform in Islam since recent attacks, I think we might be coming to something. A parallel I would make (though it was initially devastating, including one particular war) is this: It took Christianity 15 centuries (or so) to reform.

    Islam is over 1390 years old. It's basically 14 centuries years old. And it's an inside discussion.

    Steven wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    However, it could have been true for the Orlando attacker.


    It could be true for every Islamic terrorist attack ever committed, and it still wouldn't negate the underlying ideology. And though other factors and personal motives give rise to the specificities of these atrocities -and ISIS will attract at least a few disenfranchised psychopaths- if there's a thread to follow, we should take every opportunity to pull on it - especially in the face of leftist obscurantism under its ingratiating guise of virtue.


    Well, there have been voices that the Orlando attack was basically a guy who contracted HIV during sexual activity. IS didn't know that before they endorsed and claimed the attack. It came out about a week or two later.

    IS was "hijacked" by people to possibly take the "publicity" away from their real issues and problems. Some time ago a guy barricaded himself in a place (a bar?) somewhere in Australia and threw IS flags from the windows. He was a convicted rapist who had to flee his country because of that. That country was Iran. Now, what's wrong with THAT picture?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website