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      CommentAuthorStavroula
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016 edited
    This is something we have started to face, and will have to face more in the future due to the huge number of immigrant children we will be teachIng, in Greece too. In my case, which is the Primary School, it's mostly the parents' attitudes towards the rest of us who do not follow the same values and the same religion as they do and indeed it's quite difficult to maintain a balance while at the same time insisting on the western democratic values. To be honest of course this does not apply to all. I have learnt that it is crucial not to generalize!
    Whatever you gaze rests on,do not use your vision, but the eyes of your soul...She knows better...
  1. I don't mean to generalize. Yet if I notice certain world views and certain behaviours as representative for a certain group of people I must be able to indicate that. The killer argument of "racism" is something that I have learned to face.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Yeah, but how do we do it without alienating the decent majority? I repeat my question, as you haven't really answered that in the long post.


    Yes, well, you would know all about that. And I did answer it; we indentify ideas, where they come from, to what degree they're believed, and why certain actions lead from them. I don't care if people get offended, I care about what's true.
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      CommentAuthorStavroula
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016 edited
    Captain Future wrote
    I don't mean to generalize. Yet if I notice certain world views and certain behaviours as representative for a certain group of people I must be able to indicate that. The killer argument of "racism" is something that I have learned to face.

    You misunderstood me dear Volker! I didn't imply that you generalize! I meant that there are people who are completely comfortable with other religions, values, sexual orientations and so on regardless of what their religion or political status may preach and 'suffer' from being targeted just because others take as granded that because of their religion are bound to believe or act in a specific way. I think that we all have met some of them.That's why I avoid to generalize. I didn't not mean to insult you in any way.
    Whatever you gaze rests on,do not use your vision, but the eyes of your soul...She knows better...
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016 edited
    Pawel, your fear of alienating Muslims is part of the problem. You're infantilising them. If speaking honestly about Islam's texts and their propensity to cause problems 'alienates' morally normal Muslims, then we have an even bigger problem.
  2. Steven wrote
    I don't care if people get offended, I care about what's true.

    Sounds like something Trump would say...
  3. Stavroula wrote
    Captain Future wrote
    I don't mean to generalize. Yet if I notice certain world views and certain behaviours as representative for a certain group of people I must be able to indicate that. The killer argument of "racism" is something that I have learned to face.

    You misunderstood me dear Volker! I didn't imply that you generalize! I meant that there are people who are completely comfortable with other religions, values, sexual orientations and so on regardless of what their religion or political status may preach and 'suffer' from being targeted just because others take as granded that because of their religion are bound to believe or act in a specific way. I think that we all have met some of them.That's why I avoid to generalize. I didn't not mean to insult you in any way.


    That's all right, dear Stavi!
    I also want to add that I always get support from secular Muslim students. There is much more fighting going on between distinct groups of Muslim students than between Muslims and non-Muslims.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  4. Edmund Meinerts wrote
    Steven wrote
    I don't care if people get offended, I care about what's true.

    Sounds like something Trump would say...


    Often the problem doesn't seem to what Trump says verbatim but in what way he says it (yelling), and in what context, because that implies a certain sub-text.
    There is a set of assumptions we hold to be true that form the basis of our liberal democracies and our common open European society. In regard to those principles there must be no compromising. This includes the right to practice religion within the limits of those principles.
    If, on the other side, it is your private conviction that religion in general is bad or that Islam and secularism is incompatible (implying that a Muslim who wants to live in a western society essentially needs to abandon his creed) than that's an opinion and not a constitutional principal. Not that Steven said something to that extend. It's just a general remark of mine.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  5. Steven wrote
    Pawel, your fear of alienating Muslims is part of the problem. You're infantilising them. If speaking honestly about Islam's texts and their propensity to cause problems 'alienates' morally normal Muslims, then we have an even bigger problem.


    It's not a question of merit as it is a question of rhetorics. Not what is said but how it's said. And yes, it does make sense what I say, because people who get recruited from here are former frustrated moderates. Not necessarily poor, but something does frustrate them and they're easy to "convert".

    In other words, I don't care what some people think when having to handle the truth. I care about giving viable options to potential terrorists that would recommend AGAINST taking the radicalization path.

    And I'll repeat this: we are discussing real vs. perceived threat. And that has to be discussed as well.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  6. PawelStroinski wrote

    It's not a question of merit as it is a question of rhetorics. Not what is said but how it's said. And yes, it does make sense what I say, because people who get recruited from here are former frustrated moderates. Not necessarily poor, but something does frustrate them and they're easy to "convert".


    There are flocks of people who are frustrated about one thing or another.

    What I don't like about this argument is that it tends to shove responsibility over to the majority of society. In my experience Muslim students get frustrated who don't care to learn our language properly, who attend or do not attend classes on their volition, who don't except the terms on which our society is working. Then if their perspectives are in ruins they fantasize about being victims of racism, they lament how it's everybody's fault but their own. They then may find solace in the thought of belonging to God's own people who are destined for paradise including being bestowed with 70 raisins.
    Yes and then it's our fault not to have looked enough after those poor chaps.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  7. But what is the source of that lack of will to integrate? I think it's not just that we have to make them feel nice. It's more complex than that, I think. It lies in what I called perceived threat. Where that sense comes from, I have no idea.

    The complexity of what we are discussing is that we have to constantly wander between the personal and social, between the minority and majority and the radical terror propaganda only makes use of the confusion that this subject brings on.

    I think where the majority of society's responsibility largely lies is the pressure we should make to activate moderate or, I think Steven's wording here is way better than mine, liberal Muslims to bring on the internal discussion of a reform of Islamic thought. Jihadism as we know it today is a relatively new ideology. We are talking 1950s/1960s here, we are talking Qutbism (a major influence on bin Laden and Al-Qaeda) and Wahhabism (still being taught in major universities in Saudi Arabia and OF COURSE the West doesn't want to address it because monies). Which leads me to another little point.

    Whatever terms we use in discussion whether in public or privately, we need to quit the PC terms that indeed are prevailing. Let's leave the term "Salafi Jihadism" as technical for scientific writing. We should (politicians should, everyone else should, basically) call it Wahhabism, because it pisses them off. The term "Qutbist" is also perceived as offensive to followers. That's one thing. We should alienate the ideologues.

    About what I am talking about I recommend reading about what is called the Aarhus model or "hug a terrorist". It's a topic I am researching recently (not too extensively, but I've read some stuff already), so I'll be expanding my arguments as I go.

    But I'll press one argument right now. And this is where I partially agree with Steven, though perhaps more than him I think it should come from the inside of the Muslim community rather than just us here: we need to press the liberal/moderate Muslims to speak out not just by denouncing acts, but denouncing the ideology itself. They should use arguments that are inherent in the books itself (books, because I mean both the Quran and the hadith).

    I have some Islam material at home, which my brother brought me from his trip to the Emirates. One is a new English translation of the Quran, which is reportedly very oriented on the peaceful aspects that there are (I'll see about that) and a little brochure (in both English and Arabic) on Islam and tolerance. When I deal with that stuff, I'll report on whether any of these are actually useful. But the pressure itself has to be there.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  8. Being part of a minority does make you vulnerable. This leads to seeking the security of your own community. Also society (Germany) is far from perfect. Individual members of ethnic minorities unfortunately do experience racism. Also there are anti Islam right wing radical movements. That leads to an abstract sense of being threatened.
    As an educator I am familiar with this and dealing with it is my daily job. Social dynamics of this kind are a constant topic in theory and practice.
    What I go against is when racism is claimed when there is none as a defence against reality. Also I am deeply concerned about indoctrination taking place in mosques. There are sinister things going on in some of these places. Some people "teaching" there take advantage of the insecurities of adolescence: You are under permanent threat. You must proof yourself as a true observing Muslim. Western society is evil. You must not be a part of it. The only refuge is your family and the mosque. That's dangerous.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  9. That's one thing that has to happen:

    Find the radical imams, arrest and/or deport them. Austria did that recently, didn't it?

    I find it unfathomable that there is a radical Islamic cleric in the UK who is not only not arrested, but also featured on BBC as an interviewee/expert. No, get him arrested, deported, whatever. And, especially, do NOT make him a damn EXPERT on TV!
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
    Sadly, deporting radicals imams (and other muslim radicals) with dangerous backgrounds and sometimes even futures is more difficult than what you would believe. There are one or two profiles here in Norway that we've struggled with for decades, yet there seems to be some loophole preventing them from deportation. Don't ask me how. As long as they just 'comment' in the public sphere, they're within the 'freedom of speech' box (which I'm all for), but I think some of them have far more sinister plans thought out.
    I am extremely serious.
  10. It's not just about such high profile Islamist activists who cannot be deported because they might be threatened by death penalty or torture in their own country.
    It's also about low profile radical Imams that get invited my mosque parishes and thus wander across the country to spread their poison.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
    Captain Future wrote
    The Ansbach attack looks like it was carried out by a "grey wolf" not by a sleeper. Those potential attackers that are not directed but inspired by IS seem to be the most imminent danger right now.
    Indeed. And they are the worst of their kind 'cause they are unpredictable and uncontrollable. Especially in an EU which - like Steven said, is not as powerful as we thought it was.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016 edited
    Captain Future wrote
    Especially those of Turkish decent very carefully retain their own national identity. Being German is something inferior.
    Volker


    And yet Germany esp. has long offered Turks and German-Turks so many privileges and support all these years. As i said, many Turks are special kinds of scum...ungrateful, megalomaniac, nationalistic, extreme and violent, as the recent coup and the Erdogan and the lack of western-type democracy of any kind - supporters' behavior showed to the rest of the world. And Germany that has so many of them , will sadly start seeing that very strongly in the years to come, imo.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
    Funny...my Turkish friends said much the same about the Greeks when the Greek crisis first broke... angelic
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
    The vast majority of Greeks aren't violent or nationalistic fanatics. Nor are we Muslims or support a dictator who basically kills his own, performs ethnic cleansing and essentially looks like he wants to make his own powerful Islamic State. It's his ego's ultimate goal, imo. Us greeks are mostly harmless Christian-Talibans hehe.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  11. I have a certain amount of admiration for anyone who is actually reading all of this. (But not too much admiration.)
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
    And more Islamic love over France today. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36892785 Don't care what people are saying about not generalizing and stuff. Yes, of course there are exceptions, every rule has exceptions and it's only logical. But those extreme Muslims and Islamists are quickly turning major European countries into dangerous shitholes and we will only see more and more in the years to come, day by day, 'cause with the overly liberal and open laws all these years, we've allowed everyone to come in regardless, filled our countries with radical or potentially radical in the near future filth and now it's too late imo. EU is paying the price of being too PC too liberal and too open all these years. Very sad. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36892785
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016 edited
    No D, you don't understand. Extremism is the problem! It has nothing to do with religion or specific religious ideas. It's extremism we should blame. Aren't you as worried about extreme Mormons and Jains as you are about extreme Muslims? Jeez. You sound like such an Islamophobe.

    Love and peace. That's what will solve all of this. Terrorists just need a hug.

    Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit... but then again I'm quite drunk.
  12. Steven wrote
    No D, you don't understand. Extremism is the problem! It has nothing to do with religion or specific religious ideas. It's extremism we should blame. Aren't you as worried about extreme Mormons and Jains as you are about extreme Muslims? Jeez. You sound like such an Islamophobe.

    Love and peace. That's what will solve all of this. Terrorists just need a hug.

    Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit... but then again I'm quite drunk.


    Do read about what happened in Aarhus, Denmark some time ago.

    Demetris wrote
    And more Islamic love over France today. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36892785 Don't care what people are saying about not generalizing and stuff. Yes, of course there are exceptions, every rule has exceptions and it's only logical. But those extreme Muslims and Islamists are quickly turning major European countries into dangerous shitholes and we will only see more and more in the years to come, day by day, 'cause with the overly liberal and open laws all these years, we've allowed everyone to come in regardless, filled our countries with radical or potentially radical in the near future filth and now it's too late imo. EU is paying the price of being too PC too liberal and too open all these years. Very sad. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36892785


    Extreme Muslims = Islamists. It is as simple as that.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  13. Demetris wrote
    The vast majority of Greeks aren't violent or nationalistic fanatics. Nor are we Muslims or support a dictator who basically kills his own, performs ethnic cleansing and essentially looks like he wants to make his own powerful Islamic State. It's his ego's ultimate goal, imo. Us greeks are mostly harmless Christian-Talibans hehe.


    BTW, remember the recent machete attack which left a Polish pregnant woman killed and two wounded? The guy ran away, wounded the two people and got run over by a car. He was still on the ground when he was arrested.

    The driver who ran him over was Turkish. He saw what was happening and just ran the guy over.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Do read about what happened in Aarhus, Denmark some time ago.


    Enlighten me.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
    ...in as few words as you can possibly manage, I hasten to add.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Demetris wrote
    The vast majority of Greeks aren't violent or nationalistic fanatics. Nor are we Muslims or support a dictator who basically kills his own, performs ethnic cleansing and essentially looks like he wants to make his own powerful Islamic State. It's his ego's ultimate goal, imo. Us greeks are mostly harmless Christian-Talibans hehe.


    BTW, remember the recent machete attack which left a Polish pregnant woman killed and two wounded? The guy ran away, wounded the two people and got run over by a car. He was still on the ground when he was arrested.

    The driver who ran him over was Turkish. He saw what was happening and just ran the guy over.


    That's why i said "most" and "many" Turks and not all wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  14. Demetris wrote
    And more Islamic love over France today. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36892785 Don't care what people are saying about not generalizing and stuff. Yes, of course there are exceptions, every rule has exceptions and it's only logical. But those extreme Muslims and Islamists are quickly turning major European countries into dangerous shitholes and we will only see more and more in the years to come, day by day, 'cause with the overly liberal and open laws all these years, we've allowed everyone to come in regardless, filled our countries with radical or potentially radical in the near future filth and now it's too late imo. EU is paying the price of being too PC too liberal and too open all these years. Very sad. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36892785


    Well, if the EU is such a bad place Greece is welcome to trigger §50.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
    I am sorry, what a ridiculous argument this is now? what's the aim here? you yourself do acknowledge a lot of problems regarding all of this shit that's happening now. What's the point of your post then? EU surely needs to take a deep self-look and see its common (if any) future, not pointing fingers or getting more and more apart each passing day as it now does. Do you reject the idea that EU was too loose all these years and now it's filled with uncontrollable islamists? And for the 20th time, i was born and raised in Cyprus, live and work in Cyprus. Not Greece, but that's not the point here.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  15. My point was to vex you, dear friend, I'm sorry. smile

    Yes, the EU needs to reform and Germany will have to give so it may gain. But I am not ready to sacrifice the open, liberal society in favour of a Christian fortress.

    smile Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.