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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2016
    Martijn wrote
    No, nor did I suggest that. Key concept being "fair distribution".
    What I (and James, I think) are referring to is using taxation as a catch-all solution which is sold as 'fair distribution', but basically is a very effective way to destroy the middle classes (who bear the brunt of these taxations).


    But that is exactly what Trump wants to do, and what Clinton did NOT want to do. Embracing the middle class is what her campaign was all about. And of the two parties, she's supposed to be the 'leftie' one (in an American sense, anyway).
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorChrK
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2016
    Martijn wrote
    What would behoove the "elite" is to take a step BACK rather than forward and stop labelling and belittling those that do not fit the preconceived molds. To start moderating the social and public debate in such a way that a dissenting voice does not immediately needs to fear excision and exile.


    Absolutely and unequivocally concurred. When I look at the state my country is in because of that effin' East German broad that is currently the head of government (or lack thereof), I could scream. I've never been drunk in my life, but if she steps down/is voted out of office in the 2017 general elections, I may change that.

    Before the clusterf*ck that the migrant crisis has become since fall of 2015, I not for a second, ever, even entertained the thought of voting anything other than left-centre. That, too, I may change next year.
  1. Given your words about Merkel and the fact that there's really only one other not-left-of-centre party in Germany, I can't deny that I find this a bit concerning, Kühni...
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      CommentAuthorChrK
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2016
    There's another, more "neutral" option, Edmund.

    But I'll stop here, coz it'd ruin the fun I'm having with Goldsmith's The Shadow right now.

    No worries! smile
  2. I wouldn't call my party left centre, it may be in the urban areas but not in the rural ones. I'm not happy with all that transpired since 2015 and I appreciate Kühni's concerns, still I wonder what should have been done when those immigrants were stuck in Hungary. The mistakes that led up to that situation were made much earlier. I'm sorry to say the Christian Democrats had their part in that.

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2016 edited
    Martijn wrote
    And that - I think- is where James is coming from, and which I would agree to: the definition of "rich" seems to be shifting to "anyone who earns above minimum wage". And that ties in to what I said earlier: it shifts the burden to the middle classes which as an effect seem to be dwindling in the west!


    I certainly agree with that. I'm resolutely upper middle class these days and make no apology for that, even though I feel a lot of people would like me to apologise for it. (Indeed I'm quite proud of it, having come from very lower middle class origins.) By most world standards I suppose I am "rich" but I'm not by UK standards and yet I pay a vast amount of tax. Even if we stretch the perceived definition of "rich" to mean those who earn more than the higher-rate-tax bracket (which in the UK is currently £43,000 - so slightly more than that in Euros) then we are including teachers, some nurses. Are these people really "rich"? Ironically the much-hated Tories have raised the threshold below which you pay no income tax at all to £11,000 (it was a tiny fraction of that not so long ago) and the basic rate (i.e. the rate you pay on between £11k and £43k) is at historically low levels, but this has been paid for by leaving that upper-rate boundary increasing by far less than inflation, if at all, year-on-year - so there is an ever-growing burden on the middle class to subsidise the tax cuts on the poor. And in nearly every year I have been alive - even in times of so-called "austerity" such as now - government spending has increased by more than the rate of inflation - and that tax bracket is paying for all that.

    Somehow finding a way of heavily taxing "wealth" rather than "earnings" would ensure people paid a fairer share of the burden - the mega-rich who don't need to work pay very little tax at all - but I realise it's almost impossible to do that without some sort of global agreement on tax avoidance, which is very unlikely.

    And it's that middle class that is voting for Brexit and voting for Donald Trump. I don't know whether we've reached the point where it is paying more than its fair share (I don't really think I am, I'm happy to pay what I do) but the perception is that it is and the perception (certainly in this country) is that the welfare system is no longer a safety net for the vulnerable, it's a comfort blanket for the lazy. From the late 1990s onwards we somehow managed to develop a system where it was more beneficial for a couple with children to be unemployed (free housing, childcare, unemployment benefit) than for one of the parents to work in a typical low-paid job - and once that situation arises it becomes exceptionally hard to reverse it as people become genuinely dependent on it. Of course, I know and anyone who thinks for a moment knows that as a proportion of spending the impact of this is absolutely tiny, but the whole problem is the perception of unfairness it creates which then leads people to hate "the system" and lurch to the political extremes.

    I realise social problems are a lot more complex than this, but I think Martijn raised such an important point.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2016
    Good points, but it's not the middle class that voted for Trump (they would be -- at least in theory -- on Hillary's side), but the working class and unemployed. And the rich, of course.
    I am extremely serious.
  3. Sanders (if we can use him to stand for the socialist pro-tax ideology) was talking about increasing taxes on the "1%" and closing corporate loopholes though, not the middle or even upper middle classes (politicians always appeal to the middle class because many people don't like to admit they're either poor nor super-rich, so more people think they're middle-class than actually are).

    You're absolutely right, James, (and something I hadn't really thought of before) that taxing earnings alone wouldn't exactly hit the idle rich very hard (and they deserve to be hit, in all senses of the word wink ). So, what, higher property tax? Tax things like yachts and expensive clothes and fancy cars? Sounds good to me. biggrin
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      CommentAuthorchristopher
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2016 edited
    Thor wrote
    Good points, but it's not the middle class that voted for Trump (they would be -- at least in theory -- on Hillary's side), but the working class and unemployed. And the rich, of course.


    To converse about this we'd need a working definition of "middle class" and "working class." Take Michigan, for example, where a great deal of the "working class" work for the automobile industry. The worker's unions for the major auto companies have managed to negotiate a pretty good livable wage for the factory workers. Working for one of the big auto-factories is a good job in Michigan, and will certainly put a family in what is generally considered "the middle class."

    Whether you are unemployed doesn't influence who you vote for as much as where you are unemployed. Unemployed people in the cities usually vote for democrats. Unemployed people in the countryside usually vote for republicans. There were probably more urban unemployed voting for Trump this year than voted republican in years past, though, thanks to his ability to make people mad about the "elite class" (which he ironically personifies in so many ways).

    American politics is much more influenced by the urban/rural divide than by socio-economic status (Did you read that article that Pawel posted on the last page? It's very insightful). I'm guessing that about half of the middle class voted for Trump this election, and half for Clinton, mostly based on where they live.
  4. From a European perspective Sanders is hardly more than a moderate social democrat.

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
    Who would still have had to go up against a Republican senate and House. So effectively wouldn't have been able swing much more than Obama did.

    But it certainly would have looked more dignified than what we have now.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  5. Another more general thought I had...

    Could we say that what we are witnessing now globally is, essentially, a reversal of 1968?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Another more general thought I had...

    Could we say that what we are witnessing now globally is, essentially, a reversal of 1968?


    I would sorta agree with that. It's very disconcerting to me that there's a right-wing orientation in many western countries, even here in Norway. Fringe parties are now becoming actual players.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
    A reversal? How so?
    I would simply say a counter-reaction.
    These things tend to happen, historically. Nothing really shocking about it.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  6. These are the same to me, I mean, at the end of the day we are looking at reversing the trends that dominated socially since the late 60s.

    While it didn't yet make such a strong appearance in culture, I have to say that knowing quite a few people in the local artistic youth, they do have somehow more conservative leanings. Maybe they're, you know, not all KKK, Donald Trump or anything like that, but for example their outlook at history of Poland is very conservative. In some cases (as one of my very best friends, not the one known here though) it's due to family history.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  7. I believe indeed that we are reaching the end of the industrial epoch that basically originated around 1850. We are reaching the Limits of Growth. We see that the promises of capitalism, that, if fulfilled at all, are realized on the expense of limited natural resources and on the expense of ecological balance. Already the financial footing of the system is unstable.
    We either make the transition to the solar age that - IMO - will need an economical concept that is based not so much on competition but on communitarianism and subsidiarity. Or else the western hemisphere is heading for real trouble. No, not the apocalypse, as some seem to think.
    Times of change are times of fear and disorientation. Sadly the internet does as much damage here as it does good. Weak public leadership adds to the situation. Where we would need a guided evolution thinks might well take the way of revolution with an uncertain outcome.
    I see recent political developments, the result of elections and referendums as acts of fear and denial.
    So where are the Vulcans when we need them?

    smile Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
    Of all the threats emanating from Trump's rise to power (and other right-wing factors worldwide), the climate problem is what I'm the most worried about. If he torpedoes the Paris agreement, as he says he will -- which was one small step in the right direction -- I can't see any way out, to be honest. If these efforts strand in their infancy, I'm confident we'll see the end of polar caps and a screwed-up ecology even within my lifetime, much less that of the next generation(s).
    I am extremely serious.
  8. Captain Future wrote
    We either make the transition to the solar age that - IMO - will need an economical concept that is based not so much on competition but on communitarianism and subsidiarity.

    So, in other words, the exact opposite of the current right-swinging of the pendulum. Great. slant

    Perhaps I'm being fatalistic but at the moment I don't feel as though bringing children into this world is a particularly ethical thing to do.
  9. I don't adhere too much to the common right wing / left wing paradigm any more. Ok, I never thought that left wing fellows were the better people or had the monopoly on progress. It's more about authoritarianism vs liberalism and centralism vs subsidiarity. It's about reason and common sense. Er, oh dear, I think you're right. slant
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
    Thor wrote
    Of all the threats emanating from Trump's rise to power (and other right-wing factors worldwide), the climate problem is what I'm the most worried about.


    AGreed. That, and the fact that he wants to minimise the US' involvement in NATO are indeed the two major items that will affect the world at large.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
    Thor wrote
    Of all the threats emanating from Trump's rise to power (and other right-wing factors worldwide), the climate problem is what I'm the most worried about. If he torpedoes the Paris agreement, as he says he will -- which was one small step in the right direction -- I can't see any way out, to be honest. If these efforts strand in their infancy, I'm confident we'll see the end of polar caps and a screwed-up ecology even within my lifetime, much less that of the next generation(s).


    Me too. I want to see far, far more done than is currently being done, or planned - but now we're very likely to see less.
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      CommentAuthorChrK
    • CommentTimeNov 12th 2016
    I echo Edmund's sentiments about not having children in this day and age...apart from the fact that I'm too old, too single and too gay to become a father in any case.

    The next four years won't be good ones for the environment, that's for sure. Stocks for mining and construction companies are already soaring in many places...guess they're preparing to frack the f*ck out of this planet. I still remember the sights of Fort McMurray and the Alberta oil sands...it's a lunar landscape in the middle of the green boreal forests. I'm sure that the companies in the US are soiling themselves about the possibilities about drilling in the Arctic Ocean, national parks, what-not.

    It would be a nice utopia where the effects of environmental pollution would exclusively be felt by the countries that are doing that pollution, but hey, greenhouse gases don't really care about borders and where they're affecting the climate.

    Fits that I'm currently listening to Boito's Mefistofele. That one, at the very end, gets a happy ending, so perhaps I should be trying to be a little optimistic. Earth will be around long after Homo (in)sapiens will have vanished. That consoles me.
  10. Myron Ebell to lead US EPA. It's surreal. shocked
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorchristopher
    • CommentTimeNov 12th 2016 edited
    I'm about to argue for having children, but let me first say that I'm not telling any of you specifically that you should have children. You may not be in a position to have children, and if you are, the decision to have children is intensely personal and I would never disagree with someone for choosing not to. But I will speak to the theoretical "this world is too awful to bring a child into" idea. I find it strange when people cite the problems in the world as a reason not to have children. If you don't like the way the world is going, it seems like raising children well is one the very best ways you could leave a positive impact on this world. Additionally, there are all kinds of practical reasons to have children. Childbirth is declining all across Europe, with birth rates being below replenishment level for some time. Not having children will mean fewer and fewer people each generation to shoulder the welfare burden of an aging population that continues to get larger by comparison. And when Muslims become the majority thanks to high birth and immigration rates, I wonder how that will change governments. Now, I'm not someone who thinks that all Muslims are terrorists or anything, but you can't deny that a changing demographic would have significant impacts. Call me a traditionalist, but I think that having and raising children well can only help a world headed in the wrong direction.
  11. Captain Future wrote
    Myron Ebell to lead US EPA. It's surreal. shocked

    FUCK THAT SHIT.face-palm-mt kill suicide explode

    Christopher, it's stuff like this that makes me feel reluctant to have kids. I don't particularly want my offspring to have to live out their years on a burnt-out husk of a planet whose biodiversity is going down the toilet.
  12. I mean what the fuck next? I hear Sheriff Joe Arpaio's out of a job, maybe Trump can put him in charge of immigration! Maybe we can sell the national parks to BP and Exxon Mobil while we're at it. Frack that shit. Who needs a bunch of rocks and useless animals and trees anyways? They're hurting the economy!

    suicide suicide suicide
  13. I oppose considering general (not individual) economic aspects when it comes to family planing. Otherwise we could as well re-introduce the Mutterkreuz medal.

    Anyway, as Kühni I am too old and too single for that. Also I teach roughly a hundred children on workdays. That makes me happy enough.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeNov 12th 2016 edited
    From Trump to children....these are indeed world events. smile

    I'm turning 39 next week, which is old for family startups, yes, but not TOO old. I have several friends who have started out that late. But the road to that point is very long for me -- I have enough issues to sort out in my own life, so the prospect of having the surplus of energy to go "all in" in regards to a girlfriend, and then -- after a while -- jump into having children....well, it just doesn't seem very realistic. Nor would it be very responsible at this point. Which is why I came to terms with myself several years ago; I'm just not having kids in my life. Except my niece, and whatever new children my siblings may have in the future.

    I'm very opposed to the whole 'family unit' way of organizing societies, though, and the stigma that people put on people who have chosen to lead single lives ("surely, there must be something WRONG with them?!").
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2017 edited
    In a few hours Trump has his first press conference since he was the winner of the elections. He's going to be grilled! That's the only cool thing related to him that I can hope of.I'm sure he'll answer like he has been answering the past year: like a kid that doesn't like to lose. What a snort this man is. For the other part he creeps me out.
    Kazoo
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2017
    For some reason, I'm kinda looking forward to Trump making a mess of things -- not in that it will affect Americans negatively, of course, but because I'm hoping his shenanigans will make the whole presidency collapse onto itself. If we're very, very lucky, his presidency will be cut short due to some inane decision that goes against the judicial system.
    I am extremely serious.