World events

No amount of drone striking would cause a secular society to retaliate with the style of violence we see from Islamists though. We know this is true since there are examples of oppresion and imperialism against non-Islamic countries that, funnily enough, don't retiliate with beheadings and suicide bombings. Ideas -where they come from and those who believe in them- matter. They say it quite plainly and loudly: Paradise is real, martydom gets you there, and jihad is the way to achieve it. The West may have its crimes, which Islamists largely use as a matter of convenience, but they are the exception, not the rule. The opposite is true where Islamist ideology is concerned.

We're talking about recruitment issues. Drone strikes definitely make people more lenient for that kind of propaganda.

You probably dislike the very popular (in fact trendy, if there's any) word recently, narrative. We're at a war of symbols as well. That's one of the reasons why some consider France is attacked so regularly. And yes, offending these particular groups is DEFINITELY the way to go. If that features being biased in terms of sending financial aid to certain places (aka, helping only those, whcih don't bring terrorists about, etc.), I'm all for it.

True, but not because of interference.
There's a story going 'round, which was told me by a Dutch vet who did three tours in Afghanistan, about a soldier she met fresh from a tour in Iraq.
That already tells you it must almost certainly be apocryphal, but still it is pretty indicative for the frame of mind:

"I was at the barber's in Basrah, and, as you do, got talking about the political and military situation.
The barber lamented that everything was worse now that the West had invaded. "Life is terrible, there is no money to be made, there is no fresh food. It's horrible. Coming here is the absolute worst the West has ever done to us!"
Whereupon I asked the barber whether it would have been better had we stayed away and not interfered.
The barber reacted shocked as if scandalised. "By the Prophet's beard, NO! THAT would have been the VERY worst thing the West would have ever done to us!"

Again: do not overestimate the West's role -passively or actively- in this ever ongoing conflict
We're just an agent in a culture of shame and blame-appointing for the aggression and violence that is very much at the root of this region.

So now he wants to take the US out of the Paris Agreement...Speaking for myself and my generation who has to live on this planet for about half a century longer than you will, go fuck yourself, Trump.

They'll need a boat to reach Trump Tower.

Volker

At the rate the scandals surrounding him are going, he won't make it that far, thank God. Not that I cherish the idea of a President Pence (or Ryan), but at the very least he'd be competent...

Another attack in London. Utterly violent attacks by 3 jihadist pricks. Once again the words "this is for allah" were uttered.

Religion is humanity's worst invention.

It's a cultural extrapolation of the condition humaine?

Thanks for that - it made me laugh out loud. At some point it was an invention, perhaps to fill some sort of void in previous cultures. Religion has a place but this hasn't anything to do with religion but religion is being used as an excuse by these people.

Thirded!

Tell me of a religious thought that isn't or at some point wasn't political though. Buddhism mostly, but Far Eastern thought develops the opposite way to Western (as in, philosophy branched out of religion. In the Middle East religion branches out of philosophy, as happened with Confucianism and Taoism... Buddhism similarly - started out as philosophy).

There is however one thing that has to be mentioned. To whom is Islamism considered as legitimate? To Muslims, obviously, but isn't the point we should make in the West that we delegitimize Islamism in our culture? Shouldn't that be our focus on the symbolic (and obviously not just political, but, especially, law enforcement) front?

Good point to make is one you do here and I've been trying to even teach people about: Not all Muslims are Islamists. Not all Islamists are Jihadist (but can have a radical branch, as seen by the relationship between the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas). The problem is that when it comes to action, the differentiation is not taken into account at all. The point that all Muslims are like that is something that IS or whoever is responsible for any kind of attack (potentially Al-Qaeda, though its operational power has been reduced only to the Middle East right now) wants to instill in us. It's not just fear politics as the term terrorism itself is defined as. It's the fact that on the local front any kind of reaction can be framed as an attack on Islam itself. Especially the completely indiscriminate airstrikes Trump tends to happily send all over to Mosul.

The reason why we are losing the symbolic war out there (war for the souls, if you want to sound poetic) is that are deaf to their language. Whatever nuance we can have in any kind of discussion on contact is lost in translation, because we all think that everyone should understand our values. That's not true. We can teach our values and whatever we want if we actually learn to speak their language and sometimes even, yes, adhere to that culture. Hell, anyone heard of the Jesuits in the 16th century?!

Sorry to disappoint you, but atrocities have been committed in the name of even Buddhism. Ever heard of the Rohingya, a Muslim minority people in Myanmar? If not, well, that's just fine by the Buddhist Myanmar government, who deny them citizenship and basic human rights and are in the middle of a massive campaign against them which has forced about 100,000 of them to abandon their homes and seek refuge in Bangladesh.

Bottom line is, people suck irrespective of religion. They will always find some excuse to spit on, shit on, despise, mistreat and shun anybody who is different from them.

As it should be.
No religion should be exempt from the most critical of views in the best of times.

These are the worst of times.

We are loosing the war of symbols because the secular society is based on concepts that are abstract in nature. To a point religion means, to turn abstract concepts into (seemingly) palpable things. We cannot compete on that level. (Or should we erect a Temple of Reason?) It`s hard to convince religious people to give up their idols.

Volker

It does happen in Europe and doesn't lead anywhere. There are European imams who are calling for exactly this to happen.

So what?