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- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010 edited
Christodoulides wrote
Interesting that you quote a "black and white" philosophy article from English sources, which have nothing to do with the Euro in the first place.
Nobody's guaranteeing the rise of the Euro once Greece is bailed out. Instead of focusing on the black sheep which has always been the easy solution, Europe should perform self-criticism and especially investigate those who are constantly undermining the Eurozone's stability, such as Britain to name but one. EU should look at the deep, real reasons behind the unrest and not on the what appears to be the cause in the surface.
Nobody's guarantueeing anything.
If we could give guarantuees now we wouldn't be in any trouble! That's the whole problem: the Euro was supposed to be "guarantueed" by these strict criteria for entrance. Once member states lie about meeting those criteria (Greece), or when -once in- doing nothing to strengthen internal economies, but rather using the EU as a quick and easy cash cow (Portugal, Spain), what kind of guarantuees are worth anything?
As far as the article is concerned, it just happens to be from the UK, and it quite clearly analyses the problem and the approach to a solution. Nothing "black and white" about it! That they have nothing to do with the Euro is completely irrelevant to the validity of the analysis.
As far as the UK's own economy: whatever the UK does has NO bearing on the Euro whatsoever (well. Little, anyway)!
It's an independent coin, with FAR stronger ties to the Dollar then the Euro
Economically I couldn't care less what the UK does!
Politically it's a whole different matter, but I seem to glean from your posts you are rather talking about the political course of the EU than it's economic one.
Christodoulides wrote
And what led to the unrest of the Euro, in your opinion, since European markets have been nothing but stable during the last 2 years?
Again I distinguish between the political side and the economic one:
Economically: definitely Greece. Greece has damaged faith in the Euro by alleged fraud. This was devastating beyond belief in a science that is so much more run by emotion than anyone cares to admit.
But, to be fair, hadn't it been Greece now, it would have been Spain or Portugal in 18 months time.
It was a divergence very much in the making. Greece has just expedited it.
Maybe for the best.
Politically: France, Germany and the UK on the one hand have been self-serving to the extreme, deeply distrusting and blocking any legislation that was perceived as not immediately conductive to national political and economic interests, and forcing other legislation to serve -again- national interests only (especially France!)
The south of Europe has happily accepted insanely swollen subsidies to nigh-dead industries and exports without giving much thought to (re)construction or reform.
Economically I'm pretty sure Europe (well, the Euro zone) will be able to pull together in time.
Politically I'm far more pessimistic.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010 edited
Owsh. It's even worse than I thought.
Thanks for the explanation again.Kazoo -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010 edited
Martijn, our basic difference is that i believe that politics and finance are integrally interconnected and influencing one another. It'd be a very simple world if you could set them apart so easily, as any black and white theorem that blames merely Greece for the unrest, seems to be doing.
Anyway, there's no point in discussing this further since i fail to believe that just one country is to be blamed for all the financial problems of the E.U, be it Greece, Spain, Portugal or anyone else. I always consider things in the big picture, which has always been politics and power. Very nasty games are played against Europe and its finance as we speak, and you simply cannot separate economy from politics like that; it simply doesn't work in this way
Anyway, wait 'till Stavi sees this. I am telling on you and you can kiss Greek Goddesses goodbye!
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorStavroula
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
I just saw!!! Goodbye indeed!!!Whatever you gaze rests on,do not use your vision, but the eyes of your soul...She knows better... -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010 edited
Christodoulides wrote
Martijn, our basic difference is that i believe that politics and finance are integrally interconnected and influencing one another. It'd be a very simple world if you could set them apart so easily, as any black and white theorem that blames merely Greece for the unrest, seems to be doing.
Well, you asked for a cause. Greece is the direct cause, whether you like it or not, and notwithstanding any political and economic machinations in the background. I'm not much for a relativistic approach where blame incessantly is divided between hosts of cultural and political parties and dynamics until such a moral quagmire is created that effectively no one takes any kind of responsibility...something that's happening and happened far too often (witness the many, many bank scandals in recent months)!
It really is this simple:
1) To get into the EU, your economy needs to meet certain criteria.
2) Greece has for years maintained and provided figures to prove they met those criteria.
3) These number, as it turns out, have been doctored.
4) As a consequence, immediately after, the Euro dropped against the Dollar with many percentages, as investors shy away and start reinvesting in Dollars.
Nothing complicated about it. A very clear cause and effect.
Anyway, there's no point in discussing this further since i fail to believe that just one country is to be blamed for all the financial problems of the E.U, be it Greece, Spain, Portugal or anyone else.
It's not.
It's Greece, Portugal, Spain AND Ireland.
These are dangerously threatening economic stability by their slipping national deficit.
Nobody's forced them into that position, and no political manoeuvring from any member has increased that situation.
What Europe should have done was to create a FAR stricter control system and a thorough regime for dealing with non-compliance. THAT is the MAJOR shortcoming of the EU here, which would have saved a LOT of grief.
But you know: stolen horses and barnyard doors.
I always consider things in the big picture, which has always been politics and power. Very nasty games are played against Europe and its finance as we speak, and you simply cannot separate economy from politics like that; it simply doesn't work in this way
They're not separate...but the obstruction you speak about and the current lack of economic stability have very clear and separate causes. Addressing those causes AND their effects will of course need committment on both levels.
Anyway, wait 'till Stavi sees this. I am telling on you and you can kiss Greek Goddesses goodbye!
I don't think anyone can or should hold the Greek population to account.
Quite the contrary: my heart goes out to the Greek people who, due to what appears more and more clearly to be a continued reign of lazy, corrupt and nepotist rulers are now called upon to make huge sacrifices.
You deserved better than that.
A lot better.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Stavroula wrote
I just saw!!! Goodbye indeed!!!
Wut?
'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorStavroula
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Martijn wrote
I don't think anyone can or should hold the Greek population to account.
Quite the contrary: my heart goes out to the Greek people who, due to what appears more and more clearly to be a continued reign of lazy, corrupt and nepotist rulers are now called upon to make huge sacrifices.
You deserved better than that.
A lot better.
Well, tell that to the British media which have been hitting us non stop! And to Greek people us well, perhaps they will believe it. My salary is going to be cut off at least 50 to 100 euros. But hey! I work for the public sector and I'm considered well paid! For crying out loud!!! Well paid indeed!!!Whatever you gaze rests on,do not use your vision, but the eyes of your soul...She knows better... -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010 edited
Martijn wrote
I don't think anyone can or should hold the Greek population to account.
Quite the contrary: my heart goes out to the Greek people who, due to what appears more and more clearly to be a continued reign of lazy, corrupt and nepotist rulers are now called upon to make huge sacrifices.
You deserved better than that.
A lot better.
I know, i was teasing you. Indeed our governments during the last 20 years have been proven completely incompetent and highly immoral and the Greek population would be the first to admit it.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Stavroula wrote
Well, tell that to the British media which have been hitting us non stop! And to Greek people us well, perhaps they will believe it. My salary is going to be cut off at least 50 to 100 euros. But hey! I work for the public sector and I'm considered well paid! For crying out loud!!! Well paid indeed!!!
I'm not following the Brit media on this, to be honest.
Can't really understand why they should rail against the Greek people, when it's so clearly the criminal neglect and misbehaviour of a few at the top who have caused this embarassment.
One analysis I've read predicted that the whole thing is very comparable to late 18th century France, and that at this point a revolution wouldn't be a ridiculous notion...
Whatever the case, I find it disgraceful how the Greek population should now bleed for many years.
There should be a reckoning, and those guilty brought to swift and decisive justice.
Sadly, those responsible have created such corrupt networks of power, it is extremely unlikely anything can be done.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Stavroula wrote
I work for the public sector and I'm considered well paid!
The public sector isn't one generally considered to be well-paying.
Within that sector, teachers and health care personel are considered to be low ranking on the pay scale.
For them to be hit with increasing pay cuts is nothing less than an outrage.
Disgraceful and a blight on previous governments.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Martijn, British media have nothing against Greece. It's the EURO they're fighting with passion, and the EU under the table to be precise, and Greece is just a very nice opportunity to bring out the shovel!Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Meh. Classic evasionism.
The UK is facing incredible issues with the pound, so what's easier than looking for an outsider culprit?
Plus ça change...
This kinda thing is best met with a truly epic :shrug: .'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Stavroula wrote
Well, tell that to the British media which have been hitting us non stop!
Where? I've seen nothing of it! -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Martijn wrote
Meh. Classic evasionism.
The UK is facing incredible issues with the pound, so what's easier than looking for an outsider culprit?
Plus ça change...
This kinda thing is best met with a truly epic :shrug: .
And the same to you! I've seen nothing of this in our media. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
...you seriously think the pound is doing fine?'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Damn!
Our media hasn't talked about it much either. I certainly didn't talk about the consequences. Why isn't action taken against this government?Kazoo -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Southall, do an advanced google search with the following settings
keywords
Greece problem finance debt crisis or just with "greece problem"
and restrict the countries to "united kingdom".Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Bregt wrote
Why isn't action taken against this government?
Like what?
There is no action TO take!'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Martijn wrote
...you seriously think the pound is doing fine?
Of course I don't, it's an absolute nightmare and my country might well go into complete meltdown this year, depending on how the election goes.
What I was saying is that I've seen nothing in the media about blaming the euro, the Greeks, whatever. -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
I don't know. Like firing the government or destroying the Parthenon.Kazoo -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010 edited
Indeed, there is perfectly stark realisation from most commentators that we're the only country in the developed world in a more dire position than Greece. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
Southall wrote
What I was saying is that I've seen nothing in the media about blaming the euro, the Greeks, whatever.
Ah! Pardon
I misunderstood.
Bregt wrote
I don't know. Like firing the government or destroying the Parthenon.
I think the Romans, Brits and Turks all tried that once.
Ddn't really take...'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeFeb 7th 2010
True. Well, at least we learned from history then it seems!Kazoo -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
One of the last remaining SS officiers has been sentenced lifelong emprisonment. It's probably the last trial convicting a WW2 criminal. Odd that it did not more attention. I hope it's not getting forgotten after this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8338817.stm
And also, Google's action in China, after reacting on the hacks on their applications and the censoring, continues. Google now redirects their Chinse website to the Hong Kong site, which has less strict censorship. Go Google!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters … _game.htmlKazoo -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeMar 24th 2010 edited
Today, Portugal follows Greece in having its government debt downgraded.
I note that earlier in the week the German government advised people not to use Firefox because of security concerns - odd that it didn't attract the kind of hysterical reaction as when they did the same thing for IE earlier in the year. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMar 24th 2010 edited
Southall wrote
Today, Portugal follows Greece in having its government debt downgraded.
The main thing I'm shocked about is that people are shocked about this.
We knew this was going to happen.
Spain will be next, then Ireland and quite possibly France.
Rather than trying to artificially keep a hundred balls in the air, hoping no one notices the physical impossibility of it all, I am slightly disappointed the EU and IMF aren't dealing with the economic reality.
Yes, we do need some redefinitions of existing treaties.
Yes, the Euro will take a hit.
But there's no way around it. Denying and delaying the inevitable will indubitably lead to more frustration and surprise. And the main thing we need now is stability (even if it's not a euphorically unrealistic one as we've had for years) to keep the stock markets under control.
It's unfortunate economics is one terrain I am not very well versed in, because I have been pondering how to restructure stock market systems towards a less psychological (not to mention psychopathic) approach.
But, apart from shutting it down entirely and moving towards communism (which has proven to work so well
) I have had no workable insights.
I note that earlier in the week the German government advised people not to use Firefox because of security concerns - odd that it didn't attract the kind of hysterical reaction as when they did the same thing for IE earlier in the year.
It's an old adage: people do not like big corporations.
Therefore anything Microsoft gets wrong is met with glee.
Bregt wrote
One of the last remaining SS officiers has been sentenced lifelong emprisonment. It's probably the last trial convicting a WW2 criminal. Odd that it did not more attention. I hope it's not getting forgotten after this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8338817.stm
I am SO in two minds about this.
On the one hand -being a keen student of comparable atrocities the world over (we really haven't learned a thing)- I am a vehement proponent of never EVER letting these monsters of the hook, and to let them bleed for their unspeakable acts until their life's very end. It is our humanity that demands that those who trespass against it in such a way should never feel safe. Ever.
On the other hand, the revenge aspect disturbs me.
While at heart all punitive law is based on revenge, that as a sole motive is too cruel and one-sided for me.
I am reminded of an old interview I saw with Simon Wiesenthal, the great Nazi hunter, in the late eighties, in which he dismissed the old nazis from the war: "he's just a man, an old man. He poses no threat. He is obsolete. All he wants is to be left alone and die in peace..."
And then he turned and leaned straight into the camera, his voice changing to ice cold steel: "Ich. Lasse. Ihn. Nicht." (I won't let him).
It made quite an impact on me then, and I have been questioning the dual morality of hunting people to their grave and the nature of guilt and punishment ever since.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeMar 24th 2010
A fine post, Martijn! Apart from leaving UK (and maybe Italy) out in between Ireland and France at the end of your first paragraph. -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeMar 24th 2010
Southall wrote
I note that earlier in the week the German government advised people not to use Firefox because of security concerns - odd that it didn't attract the kind of hysterical reaction as when they did the same thing for IE earlier in the year.
I indeed had to look this up.
The problem is already fixed if you updated to 3.6.2. That's less than a week.
What bugs me though, is that you compare IE to Firefox, as if the people behind it, handle the same way. IE only brings out patches once a month (and that only started for IE7, even less) and these updates are part of the Windows Automatic Updates, which a lot of users don't even have turned on. Firefox updates itself (after letting the user know). Comparing both is not fair to the community that backs up Firefox.
But well, I'm the fanboy.
Kazoo -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeMar 24th 2010
Southall wrote
A fine post, Martijn! Apart from leaving UK (and maybe Italy) out in between Ireland and France at the end of your first paragraph.
Ireland too?
UK too?
France too?
Kazoo -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeMar 24th 2010
I think Ireland's almost certain to follow (in a terrible state). UK depends on who wins the election in May, probably. If the current lot win again then I imagine that will lead to a downgrade, since their plan for dealing with our financial crisis is to do not a great deal.