World events

On worthwhile once-off cultural prestige projects, one would hope?

I'd be surprised if there was anyone who thought it did. Justice isn't about 'erasing' the past but rather accounting for the past. (That's the idea anyway.)

As for the rest of the countries following Greece, well, you can always kill Greece and kick it out of the Eu and the Eurozone; after all it's us who caused all the other countries' inner financial problems, unemployment and debts.

In the US the health bill is historic. Unlike California people that I know in Minnesota aren't happy about it. When I mention the fact that four of our representatives Ellison, McCollum, Oberstar, and Walz voted for it they have no answer. Did Obama hold a gun to their heads? I don't think so.

I think many of you realize what is at stake in the US. Just one part of the bill, the fact that an insurance company can no longer discriminate against a pre-existing condition anymore (like myself having had the stroke) is going to hurt the insurance companies. I think it is a good thing.
Thomas

Well, it's what the current government is trying to do but the roots of evil are deep and go long back in time. It will take lots of efforts, time and harshness for this effort to bring results.

But anyway, we have a debt, a big one admittedly. Like every other country does. Some smaller, some bigger, my sentence was to be taken with a bit of irony anyway.* It's just us who came in the surface first, then the rest will follow. Some are hiding it way better than us. It's a worldwide problem that knows no boundaries and it's not limited to one or two Countries. If things keep evolving in the same downward fashion as they do know, it's a matter of time for most countries, especially those who don't have a strong industry to back them up.

*except if you really think that after all it's us who caused all the other countries' inner financial problems, unemployment and debts.

My point was more general. Whether one should be let go whatever the actions he has caused in the past, simple due to the time factor, that he's very old, about to leave this world soon anyway, uncapable to now harm anyone, at least more than he already did, and just wants to die in peace.

It was never taken into consideration actual European governments would be so immoral they'd actively and actually full out lie.

The only dues they'll pay is they may not be re-elected into anything ever again (but given the public memory, that is not a given at all ).



While the social-liberal way (mandatory) insurance is handled in Europe (or in The Netherlands at least) certainly has its drawbacks, the American system has always been the laughing stock or the shame -depending on your point of view- of the civilized world. This is a very good step, to my mind.

As you may well remember I mentioned Spain, Ireland and Portugal the very first time as well (I'm not even going to look it up. You're perfectly capable of doing that yourself if you want).
You have to be perfectly blind to not see their problems in the Eurozone.

The only thing that set me off against Greece is -contrary to the other three- THAT THEY LIED.
That was always and ever my point.

And THAT has been the beginning of the immediate and almost irreparable international distrust of the Euro. And THAT in its turn has caused an accelerated decline for the other three, which MAY (or may not...we'll never know) have been able to be saved by taking drastic measures.

But while the markets would CERTAINLY have reacted adversely to that, the only fact that there was an ACTIVE and DELIBERATE cover-up of outright LIES has done MORE and DEEPER damage than any (predictable) economic turn of events could ever have.

Martijn, look Greece's small size, population and economy / industry up. If you seriously think it can do so much damage to a recession that started from the other side of the globe and sweeped Greece's (and other soon to fall weak economies as well), then what can i tell you? I refuse to accept that someone as intelligent and educated as you actually believe this. The recession has brought Greece's lying to the surface and accelerated its disposal but it wasn't Greece who caused anything; it's too small and insignificant in the big global picture to have such a power. What started isolated in the beginning from the US markets, has now started to cause a domino effect to the entire world. And it's not just 3-4 countries as you set it here, it's a wider problem. Greece was simply the first victim 'caused they lied and their problem is proportionally bigger than other similar countries in the EU.

You're RIGHT!
Greece's economy accounts for about 5% of all economic trade in the EU.
5%!

And that is EXACTLY my point. That's what makes this thing so galling.
This SHOULDN'T have made the impact it did, and it wouldn't have...if those lying scumbags in the government would have come clean sooner. Or indeed -preferably- had been truthful in the first place...but that would never have been a scenario as they would simply never have been able to enter the Eurozone then.

It's the shock and size of the LIE that has pretty much destroyed investors' confidence.
Economics, especially stock market economics, as I've argued time and again, these days have far less to do with science, but with emotion and psychology.
And in such an environment -as often in life- it's the lie that hurts the most.

While I'm more than happy to go to bat against anyone proposing the death penalty, that indeed is the hardest and emotional confrontation possible, and brings home very clearly that age-old ethical dilemma of whether it's the needs of the few that should prevail, or that of the many.

To my mind there is a great difference between sympathising and empathising with those victimized (and who in his right state of mind wouldn't?), and taking only their loss as a basis for a all-encompassing penal system. A society should never work that way.
And I will defend that point of view.
Even against those who have suffered so grievously.
Not because they are wrong, or because I don't care.
But because I *must*.

But D., that is simply blatantly untrue. It is just not the case!
If anything the Euro was THE financial stronghold, growing immensely in value against the dollar!



D., how can anyone provide evidence for a hypothetical situation?
That didn't HAPPEN, so -logically- there is no, nor can there ever BE evidence!

The evidence (as in "measurable, observable and documented") is simply that when Greece's LIE came to light, the Euro dropped liked a brick. THAT is what actually HAPPENED.



That's what you would think, isn't it?
That's what you would hope?

But unfortunately it isn't what happened.



By evidence.
Observable, measurable and documented events.

D, you can't deny that since Greece's lie came to lie, the Euro dropped. It was still going strong, comparing to the dollar, even after the bad year 2009 was. Greece certainly is the main reason for the problem, you just can't turn that data away?

EDIT: See Martijn's better response.

But nobody said anything against the Greek people.
And in fact I don't think anybody ever did.

I can't count the number of times in this very tread I said the Greek people will be the worst to suffer, and how infuriatingly unjust that is.

But the fact that the Greek population will suffer for decades has nothing to do with the very real arguments put forward in this thread about the accelerated freefall of the Euro and the danger the Euro zone is in (even though obviously it is a consequence of it).

When the Euro was introduced then this very thing was labelled as a big risk. Serious opponents to its introduction, indeed, identified it as the main reason it shouldn't happen.

I am, as ever, one to leap to conclusions despite only having a fraction of the evidence, and I'd suggest that the Greek problems served perhaps to expose the fact that other economies within the Eurozone were inevitably heading towards similar problems, and that's the real cause of the Euro weakening. This much should have been blindingly obvious to anyone with any common sense for many years, but apparently not to finance ministers around the world.

I can at least speak with an air of disinterest since the UK's currency is even weaker and we're probably heading towards our own meltdown (and have a smaller pot of friends than others who might help to bail us out - I guess the hope is we can call in a few favours from the US).