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    • CommentAuthorKevinSmith
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    I know this will seem a bit silly but I have a complaint to Southall regarding his Islands in the Stream review.

    He said
    ["I feel very strongly that a soundtrack album must be able to stand on its own terms to be considered a success, but it is virtually impossible to understand the complexities of this score without possessing the knowledge about how it is utilised alongside the deep and moving story. I myself was guilty of dismissing the score on first hearing: but having now seen the film for which it was written, I fully understand and am frankly in awe of Goldsmith's achievements"]

    Why did you have to watch the film? How is that fair to very other film score that you've listened to (most of them you've never seen the film for)? Arguably, EVERY film score would improve in its rating if you watch the film to see the effect that the film score had on the movie. I believe that you were more lenient because one of your top five favourite film composers wrote the score. If Tyler Bates wrote this score, you wouldn't have bothered to watch the film, I know that to be true.
    Revenge is sweet... Revenge is best served cold... Revenge is ice cream.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Everybody gets his own thread but me. sad
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Curse that Southall and his mischievous ways. *shakes fist*
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Mine was put on the back burner so don't complain
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    sdtom wrote
    Mine was put on the back burner so don't complain


    It's still there but you don't use it any more! confused
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    KevinSmith wrote
    I know this will seem a bit silly but I have a complaint to Southall regarding his Islands in the Stream review.


    It's a fair question. I can only say that I've found it to be very, very rare that my opinion of a soundtrack album has changed after watching the film. (Indeed, it's not very logical that it would, since I've always stressed that I'm reviewing these things as albums and not as film music.) Sometimes I've found an album poor and then been able to see what the composer was trying to achieve after I've seen the film, but in general I've still found the album to be poor afterwards. This was one of the rare exceptions (I never found it to be a poor album but I didn't particularly love it).
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    I've always thought it to be a pretty natural thing to change your opinion of a soundtrack after watching the film. It depends on the score: some are so intricate to the success of a film, that watching the film will generallt only enhance the experience of the album (which is perhaps more accurate than saying it will enhance the music on the album).
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Southall wrote
    sdtom wrote
    Mine was put on the back burner so don't complain


    It's still there but you don't use it any more! confused


    James after thinking about it if I feel the review is of interest to the Maintitle crew I just put it up on the site as a review, something that Bregt has allowed me to do.
    Thomas
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    My decision of course is whether or not this group will be interested as some of the material I review is likely not.
    Thomas
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Philistines, the lot of 'em.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009 edited
    Steven wrote
    I've always thought it to be a pretty natural thing to change your opinion of a soundtrack after watching the film. .


    It is equally natural NOT do so. Again, it depends on how you became interested in soundtracks in the first place, whether it was through films or other musical genres. To me, they are completely different worlds. Soundtracks belong to listening, as rock, pop, classical, jazz etc. Music in film belongs to my FILM interest alone.

    I often find it interesting to see how a given score works in the movie (my intention to watch as many Williams-scored films as possible is an example of that), but it has no bearing whatsoever of how I listen to the album or my appreciation of it as a listening experience.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    As long as it's presented in the film's proper chronological order, obviously.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Martijn wrote
    As long as it's presented in the film's proper chronological order, obviously.


    Yeah, obviously. wink
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Thor wrote
    Steven wrote
    I've always thought it to be a pretty natural thing to change your opinion of a soundtrack after watching the film. .


    It is equally natural NOT do so. Again, it depends on how you became interested in soundtracks in the first place, whether it was through films or other musical genres. To me, they are completely different worlds. Soundtracks belong to listening, as rock, pop, classical, jazz etc. Music in film belongs to my FILM interest alone.

    I often find it interesting to see how a given score works in the movie (my intention to watch as many Williams-scored films as possible is an example of that), but it has no bearing whatsoever of how I listen to the album or my appreciation of it as a listening experience.


    You're nuts.
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      CommentAuthorkeky
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Sometimes the opinion changes after watching the movie, sometimes not. If the score is a great listening experience in itself, the movie probably won't change it for the better or the worse.
    But it happens with scores that I don't particularly like at first listen that after watching the movie it accompanies, my opinion changes for the better. My latest example is The Pelican Brief by Horner. I didn't know the movie and found the score to be rather uninteresting. Then I catched the movie on the TV and I loved the music in it. After that it was a much more rewarding listen!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    keky wrote
    Sometimes the opinion changes after watching the movie, sometimes not.


    Spot on.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    The movie can add to the initial impression of the music, it has that possibility but it can also not change it at all, it might not do anything to do even if you've watched the movie and won't alter the initial impression on the score alone.

    Since we are all humans who have a different waysof observing, listening and understanding art and music in general, there's a lot of ways different individuals of different cultural, educational and musical background but also of different tastes,apprehend the same music. It's pretty natural that we don't all like the same things. Also it's pretty evident that all these factors are basically subjective...so no wonders some might like the score alone on CD, others will find it better with viewing the film, others not, it's all pretty human. I don't see how Southall can be isolated as an example.

    As for the TYLER BATES argument my friend, i have seen all his movies and his scores are still shit. With the exception of 300, but which has other special factors that indeed benefited the whole. If it was just an example of discussion, it's acceptable in essence, Jerry Goldsmith is a damn more able and knowledgeable composer than what Tyler Bates will ever be, ín case this really, Southall's Tyler Bates / RC composers bashing from time to time (pretty validated imo) is actually the essence of your response to James' review.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Oh and no matter how many won't like it, FILM music can also be GOOD MUSIC on its own. Just like in every other genre there's good and bad music, film music is not an exception.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    sdtom wrote
    My decision of course is whether or not this group will be interested as some of the material I review is likely not.
    Thomas

    Tom Tom Tom.

    Please please don't act like we rejected your links. We didn't.

    You should keep posting your reviews in your topic, or the topic of the composer, or the topic of the score. I don't see ANY reason why we wouldn't want that, and why we wouldn't be interested. Not everyone is interested in everything, but I'm sure all your reviews will attract various people.

    So, in fact, I command you to post links to your blog of your reviews. Good for us, and good for you! smile
    Kazoo
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    keky wrote
    But it happens with scores that I don't particularly like at first listen that after watching the movie it accompanies, my opinion changes for the better.


    Interesting, because that has never ever happened to me. If I like an album, I like it. If I don't like, I don't like it. Viewing it in its film context before or after I've listened it has zero influence on my appreciation of it (or lack thereof).

    Another example that our cognitive processes work in different ways.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Thor, what you're saying can't possibly be the rule for everyone. Listening to film music is one audio experience and watching the film it was intended for is another one, a visual one, the two together might form a new understanding of the first or the latter, or even a brand new experience as a whole. Depends on the individual, his tastes, his background, his emotional connection to the film and music, etc etc. You can't be so black and white with subjects that are fundamentally subjective.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Christodoulides wrote
    Thor, what you're saying can't possibly be the rule for everyone. Listening to film music is one audio experience and watching the film it was intended for is another one, a visual one, the two together might form a new understanding of the first or the latter, or even a brand new experience as a whole. Depends on the individual, his tastes, his background, his emotional connection to the film and music, etc etc. You can't be so black and white with subjects that are fundamentally subjective.


    Actually, one is purely aural, the other is audiovisual. These are two very different cognitive processes at play. However, those who use the music as some sort of "mnemonic device" related to the film or its mood - which probably constitutes the majority of soundtrack fans - may be considered a "third species" of sorts. They use the purely aural experience to trigger SPECIFIC images or MOODS of the film rather than the more common free-flow, associative, general images that people like me do.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    I am partial to all three cognitive processes.

    I guess the only particularly detrimental thing about that is that I shell out more dough for score CDs.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Thor wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Thor, what you're saying can't possibly be the rule for everyone. Listening to film music is one audio experience and watching the film it was intended for is another one, a visual one, the two together might form a new understanding of the first or the latter, or even a brand new experience as a whole. Depends on the individual, his tastes, his background, his emotional connection to the film and music, etc etc. You can't be so black and white with subjects that are fundamentally subjective.


    Actually, one is purely aural, the other is audiovisual. These are two very different cognitive processes at play. However, those who use the music as some sort of "mnemonic device" related to the film or its mood - which probably constitutes the majority of soundtrack fans - may be considered a "third species" of sorts. They use the purely aural experience to trigger SPECIFIC images or MOODS of the film rather than the more common free-flow, associative, general images that people like me do.


    Then what about programme music of all sorts, from Beethoven and the Romantic Era to date? Music used to describe an idea, face and person, story, etc etc?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  1. Man, if someone were to audit James for consistency of approach over the years, I think our last UK-based score reviewer standing would go the way of the dodo. biggrin
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  2. Christodoulides wrote
    Thor wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Thor, what you're saying can't possibly be the rule for everyone. Listening to film music is one audio experience and watching the film it was intended for is another one, a visual one, the two together might form a new understanding of the first or the latter, or even a brand new experience as a whole. Depends on the individual, his tastes, his background, his emotional connection to the film and music, etc etc. You can't be so black and white with subjects that are fundamentally subjective.


    Actually, one is purely aural, the other is audiovisual. These are two very different cognitive processes at play. However, those who use the music as some sort of "mnemonic device" related to the film or its mood - which probably constitutes the majority of soundtrack fans - may be considered a "third species" of sorts. They use the purely aural experience to trigger SPECIFIC images or MOODS of the film rather than the more common free-flow, associative, general images that people like me do.


    Then what about programme music of all sorts, from Beethoven and the Romantic Era to date? Music used to describe an idea, face and person, story, etc etc?


    I guess the difference is that people aren't remembering images conjured up by the filmmakers or their publicity team. They're seeing something - if they're seeing anything - more personal, and perhaps imagination is involved.

    However I think it's possible to enjoy film music just as a listening experience without any of the visual stuff. I can tell you know, while I've seen images of THE TERMINAL, I try hard to put them out of my mind when I sit down to enjoy John Williams' music. The music is great, and it has nothing to do with where it came from. (Which looks like one of Spielberg's more terrible films, incidentally.)
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009 edited
    Indeed. But the man's obviously famous. When people are complaining about your writings and opinions then it probably means that you're doing something right wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2009
    Without the film there would be no music at all until composers decide to compose music for films that have never been made. Without the film many of the composers would be in another line of work. Other than superior sound in many cases, I've never gotten much out of watching a symphony orchestra perform.

    I happen to find the orchestral suite, such as the one Copland wrote for the Red Pony, far more satisfying than listening to an original soundtrack which has every cue including the material from deleted scenes or tracks never used.

    Thomas
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2009
    Christodoulides wrote
    Since we are all humans


    Speak for yourself. I know for a fact that at least six forum members are silicon-based life forms.