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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2010
    Erik and I had a discussion about this work albeit way too brief. Here is the argument. His contention is that its film music because it started out as a score for the film Scott of the Antarctic. Afterwards it was every so slightly altered and turned into a symphony. The essential material is virtually identical to the point that when you're listening you don't know if it is his symphony or the score. They are similar enough to be nearly impossible to tell the difference unless you're a musician or conductor. The popularity and listening audience of the work lies in the fact that its his 7th symphony and is performed as such in concert halls across the world. Yet Erik considers this to be soundtrack material yet in the same breath doesn't consider Adagio for Strings from Samuel Barber to be nothing more than classical music. This was a piece that achieved some popularity after it was used in the film Elephant Man in fact it was the Elephant Man. Erik contends that since it was already written it is classical film and couldn't be used on a radio program devoted to film music. I contend that it is no different than the Vaughan Williams piece and is a critical part of the movie. This is quite a friendly bantering and I created a topic because it is different and something we've not discussed before. Your thoughts?
    Thomas smile
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2010
    Things are pretty simple actually: a piece is what it oiginally started as, no matter the later and perhaps more popular usages. It's like the adagio for strings op.11 by Barber that most people, as in non-classical, film score geeks, know it as a DJ TIESTO piece. vomit
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2010
    The tables have turned on this one. It is a symphony and was used in a film no matter how it was created. We don't know unless one of us happens to be an authority on Vaughan Williams that he really had that in mind all along.
    Thomas
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2010
    rolleyes

    Do I REALLY have to stat my opinion on this again in a PUBLIC FORUM. SCOTT was a film score first then a symphony. FACT. If Tom wants to play it on the program fine. As far as I know the Chandos recording is of the film score. Play that on the show.

    As for Barber's piece in Platoon or Wagner in Apocalypse Now or Strauss in 2001... leave that stuff to the classical stations. Now, if you want to play classical music by film composers... Kamen's Sax Concerto, Williams Five Scared Trees, etc... then I'll make an exception.

    END OF STORY!!!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2010 edited
    I see Erik's point, and agree that the adagio for strings isn't a piece of film music whereas Vaughan Williams' Antarctica symphony might as well be. I just don't agree that a film music station shouldn't play the adagio simply because it wasn't originally intended for film?

    I don't see why a film music station shouldn't play classical pieces, as long as they have some kind of connection with a film. Seems a shame to reduce your pool of music to choose from just because of technicality. Classical music stations often play film music.

    Anyway, classical music is wonderful. Just like film music.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    In fact, turning this whole thing on his head, I could see where you'd be able to make a magnificent crossover program, with classical compositions USED in film (Barry Lyndon, 2001...), classical composers WRITING for film (Scott, Saint Saens), film works MADE INTO symphonies (Green Mansions) and so on! smile
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    Steven wrote

    Anyway, classical music is wonderful. Just like film music.


    But it's foreign.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    Martijn wrote
    In fact, turning this whole thing on his head, I could see where you'd be able to make a magnificent crossover program, with classical compositions USED in film (Barry Lyndon, 2001...), classical composers WRITING for film (Scott, Saint Saens), film works MADE INTO symphonies (Green Mansions) and so on! smile


    My point completely which Erik doesn't agree with. We agree to disagree on this one. I have absolutely no problem with his decision at all cheesy

    Tom
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    sdtom wrote
    The tables have turned on this one. It is a symphony and was used in a film no matter how it was created. We don't know unless one of us happens to be an authority on Vaughan Williams that he really had that in mind all along.
    Thomas


    I would still like an answer to my question. He may very well had the idea to create a symphony all along and just adapted it a bit to fit the film when the opportunity was presented to him. Either way it is a magnificent work!!!
    Tom smile
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    I hope you guys know that this isn't an anti-classical stance that I'm taking. When I started my radio show 14 years ago I wanted to give my audience (mostly college kids and non-film music fans) something they had never heard before. While there are classical stations that do play SOME film music (and by some I mean rarely) I wanted to keep Cinematic Sound a station that played music specifically written for film, TV and video games. In my 14 years I've dedicated a show solely to classical or concert music twice... and both were shows featured film music composers who have made the crossover into the classical music world.

    Playing Barber's "Adagio," Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" or Strauss' "Also sprach Zarathustra" doesn't interested me because you can hear those all the time on classical stations. On the flip side where else can you hear "Space Battle" from STAR COMMAND, "Love Theme" from GUNS FOR SAN SEBASTIAN, a 15 minutes suite from THE FUGITIVE, a 4 part tribute to Charles Gerhardt's film music recordings, etc. That's right my show. I don't want to offer my listeners something they can hear all the time by flicking on their local classical stations. While the idea of a show featuring a lecture on classical music used in film does seem intriguing (more as an essay, article or blog) playing the actual classical tracks on my show does fit with the format of my programming.

    Tom... as for an answer to your question which came first. From what I've read... the film score came first which INSPIRED Vaughn Williams to adapted the film score into symphony.

    BTW, I hope this post made sense... I'm a little tipsy! Yeah Belgium beer!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    Completely Erik. Like I said to Alan it is his thread and if he thinks Chinatown is over rated so be it. You can do whatever you want as far as the rules you set down for the show. I'm glad it has come back and I've been given the opportunity to participate. Down the road I will feature a part of Scott of the Antarctic.
    Thomas
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    Thanks Tom! I hope I didn't come off pig headed when we were discussing it earlier. As for Scott. You can play it any time. It's a film score. I insist you play it!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    Erik Woods wrote
    I hope you guys know that this isn't an anti-classical stance that I'm taking.


    Not a bit.

    Hey! It's your station.
    I just put an idea out there that happens to interest me. smile
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    So there's not going to be fight? sad
  1. Classical music is always better than film music. Even if it's a repackaged version of music created for a film, the film version will unavoidably lack the inspiration of the concert presentation. Concert music by film composers is never as good as film music by concert composers, and film music by either is inferior to concert music by either.


    kiss
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    "Here, mousey, mousey"!
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    biggrin
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    franz_conrad wrote
    Classical music is always better than film music. Even if it's a repackaged version of music created for a film, the film version will unavoidably lack the inspiration of the concert presentation. Concert music by film composers is never as good as film music by concert composers, and film music by either is inferior to concert music by either.


    kiss


    Can't agree more Michael, like Alexander Nevsky/Prokofiev, Hamlet/Shostokavich, Red Pony/Copland, and Victory at Sea/Rodgers. Korngold and Rozsa have done some good crossover work but the exception to the rule. I would shutter in my boots to hear what some of the modern day composers like a Zimmer could come up with.
    Thomas
    listen to more classical music!
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    franz_conrad wrote
    Classical music is always better than film music. Even if it's a repackaged version of music created for a film, the film version will unavoidably lack the inspiration of the concert presentation. Concert music by film composers is never as good as film music by concert composers, and film music by either is inferior to concert music by either.


    kiss


    biggrin wink
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    Vaughan Williams wrote the film score for Scott of The Antarctic, the fact he was inspired to turn this, and not his other film scores into a symphonic work is one of the great bonuses of my life cool
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    Film composers could never write as concert composers since the former don't know what a pencil and paper is, but press keys on midi keyboards connected with hordes of dull ready-nade libraries behind them.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    Timmer wrote
    Vaughan Williams wrote the film score for Scott of The Antarctic, the fact he was inspired to turn this, and not his other film scores into a symphonic work is one of the great bonuses of my life cool


    cheesy cheesy cheesy cheesy
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    Christodoulides wrote
    Film composers could never write as concert composers since the former don't know what a pencil and paper is, but press keys on midi keyboards connected with hordes of dull ready-nade libraries behind them.


    Pencil and paper? Isn't that an iPad app?
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2010
    roll over in your grave maxie
    listen to more classical music!
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2010
    What tracks do you think you will choose from the Chandos recording Tom?
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2010
    Steven wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Film composers could never write as concert composers since the former don't know what a pencil and paper is, but press keys on midi keyboards connected with hordes of dull ready-nade libraries behind them.


    Pencil and paper? Isn't that an iPad app?


    I think it's the sequel to paper toss.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2010
    I've not a clue at this writing.
    Thomas
    listen to more classical music!
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2010 edited
    sdtom wrote
    I've not a clue at this writing.
    Thomas


    Apart from the Main Titles which is a necessity, I would concentrate more on the tracks that will not be familiar to people who only know the symphony, tracks like Doom, Ice Floes, Aurora, The Return, End Titles, not much, if any material from these tracks find their way into the symphony.

    p.s. As film scores go, Scott of The Antarctic is right up there with Star Wars in it's ability to paint pictures in musical terms, I believe it to be one of the greatest film scores ever written.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2010
    I agree with you Timmer. An extra-ordinary work.

    Going back to Martijn's point about creating a classical compositions USED in film show. Tom, if you want to produce an audio lecture on subject I'd be more than happy to help produce the show and you can playing short samples of what ever pieces you want to you use to help hammer home your point. I don't want to play full classical tracks but I'd be interested an NPR styled report on the subject.

    And if anyone else would be interested in creating an audio lecture on film music (I'm looking at you Franz Conrad) then please sent me an email so we can discuss your ideas.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2010
    I'll give this some thought. For now I'm going to work on an all Vaughan Williams show of his classic film scores
    listen to more classical music!