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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012
    Well, I think the picks are mostly fine (and showcase scores that the 'common people', read: The Oscars, overlook), but they really show the bias among film score critics on the interwebz -- the 'traditionalists' seem to be in majority. That is, the classical symphonic scores that more or less follow the Hollywood tradition. I'm very happy and relieved to see Chemical Bros' HANNA and Martinez' DRIVE nominated, but that's about. It's a disgrace that Reznor's TATOO wasn't nominated, but again it shows the strong bias AGAINST these type of non-traditional, ambient scores.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012 edited
    Or it shows that our members didn't like the score enough to vote for it OR maybe they did vote for it and it didn't get enough points OR maybe the scores that were nominated were indeed BETTER than the Dragon Tattoo score. Like you said Hanna and Drive are recognized but I guess until every single electronic score gets a nomination you'll continue to cry foul. Talk about bias.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012
    Erik Woods wrote
    Or it shows that our members didn't like the score enough to vote for it OR maybe they did vote for it and it didn't get enough points OR maybe the scores that were nominated were indeed BETTER than the Dragon Tattoo score. Like you said Hanna and Drive are recognized but I guess until every single electronic score gets a nomination you'll continue to cry foul. Talk about bias.

    -Erik-


    Not really. I like all kinds of scores. But appreciation of non-orchestral ones is incredibly absent in most film score critic circles. That's not a bias, that's a fact. And some cause for concern.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012
    And the IFMCA likes all kinds of scores as well... FACT!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012
    Erik Woods wrote
    And the IFMCA likes all kinds of scores as well... FACT!

    -Erik-


    Yeah, but a little heavy towards a certain side of the scale. This can be gleaned just by looking at the chosen titles and their styles.
    I am extremely serious.
  1. Why is it a cause for concern, really?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012
    It's not.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  2. Erik Woods wrote
    Like you said Hanna and Drive are recognized but I guess until every single electronic score gets a nomination you'll continue to cry foul. Talk about bias.


    Sorry? 3 slots out of 45 potential (or whatever) instead of 2 for an genre of music is bias? That's a revealing attitude. wink
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2012 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Why is it a cause for concern, really?


    Why? I think it's fairly obvious. If you're setting out to have a representative selection film music critics, covering a wide array of styles, the occurence of biases is disappointing. When it comes to music in the film itself, the important thing to ask is how it works dramatically, and how it underlines whatever the director wants to communicate. It should move beyond however one feels about the musical style itself.

    The selection above is not TOTALLY dismissive of electronic or more alternative ways of scoring a film, thank God, but just 'traditionalist' enough to leave a slight sour taste in the mouth. At least for me.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2012
    Whatever! We picked the of the best!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2012
    franz_conrad wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    Like you said Hanna and Drive are recognized but I guess until every single electronic score gets a nomination you'll continue to cry foul. Talk about bias.


    Sorry? 3 slots out of 45 potential (or whatever) instead of 2 for an genre of music is bias? That's a revealing attitude. wink


    What? Try that again.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  3. I know. Not even Thor spotted the remark in his favour. dizzy
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2012
    The list of nominations has grown to 34+ pages, yikes!
    Tom
    listen to more classical music!
  4. Thor wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Why is it a cause for concern, really?


    Why? I think it's fairly obvious. If you're setting out to have a representative selection film music critics, covering a wide array of styles, the occurence of biases is disappointing. When it comes to music in the film itself, the important thing to ask is how it works dramatically, and how it underlines whatever the director wants to communicate. It should move beyond however one feels about the musical style itself.

    The selection above is not TOTALLY dismissive of electronic or more alternative ways of scoring a film, thank God, but just 'traditionalist' enough to leave a slight sour taste in the mouth. At least for me.


    Come to think of it, isn't it because recently you are biased towards the non-orchestral ways of scoring movies? What makes a non-orchestral or orchestral score more or less effective, in the end?

    I mean, looking at your most recent "now playing" choices, you have a definite tendency to listen to less orchestral scores and even go as far as to call action music "grating" quite often, to use your wording.

    Doesn't it mean that you actually have a bias toward non-orchestral scores yourself and that's the reason why it occurs to you that there is an orchestral bias? Film muic critics often come from a certain point of view. At 28, I guess I am one of the youngest working reviewers (though sadly not a member of IFMCA anymore, largely due to a huge hiatus I had as a reviewer for a few years) in the whole circle and I come from what I call the "The Rock" generation, so with notable exceptions I am pretty much open for the less orchestral if not ambient side of things (I haven't heard the Reznor scores, but Kawai's score to the first Ghost in the Shell movie - haven't heard the second one - belongs to my all-time favourites).

    Just a thought here.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  5. I feel I should point out that suggesting that 3 nominees rather than 2 out of a possible 45 come from the genre of electronic music... doesn't seem terribly biased. wink
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2012
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Thor wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Why is it a cause for concern, really?


    Why? I think it's fairly obvious. If you're setting out to have a representative selection film music critics, covering a wide array of styles, the occurence of biases is disappointing. When it comes to music in the film itself, the important thing to ask is how it works dramatically, and how it underlines whatever the director wants to communicate. It should move beyond however one feels about the musical style itself.

    The selection above is not TOTALLY dismissive of electronic or more alternative ways of scoring a film, thank God, but just 'traditionalist' enough to leave a slight sour taste in the mouth. At least for me.


    Come to think of it, isn't it because recently you are biased towards the non-orchestral ways of scoring movies? What makes a non-orchestral or orchestral score more or less effective, in the end?

    I mean, looking at your most recent "now playing" choices, you have a definite tendency to listen to less orchestral scores and even go as far as to call action music "grating" quite often, to use your wording.

    Doesn't it mean that you actually have a bias toward non-orchestral scores yourself and that's the reason why it occurs to you that there is an orchestral bias?

    Just a thought here.


    Not really, no. The 'traditionalist' bias (which I prefer over 'orchestral') is there for all to see with their naked eyes. It's pure fact based on the selections above. It doesn't "occur" to me. It's THERE.

    The next question is if this is negative or positive or neither.

    Of course, each and every one of us have our preferences that guide our picks, including the critics in this survey. But when asked to be part of such an official 'committee' like this, I think one should strive to depart a LITTLE bit from one's own very subjective picks; to find something that preferably reflects your own taste as well as what you consider 'the most important' or 'influential' or 'interesting' or whatever score of the year. Slightly less subjective than your own personal favourites, in other words.

    Second, while I do champion the right of critics to show us their personal favourites, I think it's a bit sad to see such a reactionary bias across the whole gamut. This really has nothing (or at least very little) to do with my own change of taste, but more a desire to see an open attitude towards the artform and towards ALL kinds of musical expression - whether it's a solo kazoo score or a techno score or a full orchestral one. Again, when it comes to assessing its value in the film, the question one should ask is: how does the music relate to the onscreen visuals and the aesthetic that the filmmaker wants to communicate? As general as that. Not: How many traditionally orchestral techniques does the composer employ in this film?
    I am extremely serious.
  6. One thing though is that there needs to be quite a few voters voting for these for them to make it to the final nominations.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2012
    Thor - we pick the best of the best. Everything is considered and even disccussed through out the year. We have over 50 members who have over 50 different opinions and point of views. We enjoy a wide variety of film score styles from all around the world. If a more traditional score makes the cut over something more electronic or not so traditional its not because we have some sort agenda against electronic scores. If the five nominees for best score are all more traditional it is because those are the scores we consider to be the best. End of story.

    So you can continue to write your conspiracy theories but you have no clue about the inner workings of the group and what we do to make sure that we are celebrating nothing but the best.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2012 edited
    Erik Woods wrote
    Thor - we pick the best of the best. Everything is considered and even disccussed through out the year. We have over 50 members who have over 50 different opinions and point of views. We enjoy a wide variety of film score styles from all around the world. If a more traditional score makes the cut over something more electronic or not so traditional its not because we have some sort agenda against electronic scores. If the five nominees for best score are all more traditional it is because those are the scores we consider to be the best. End of story.

    So you can continue to write your conspiracy theories but you have no clue about the inner workings of the group and what we do to make sure that we are celebrating nothing but the best.

    -Erik-


    Well, I don't agree with that assessment and I think the picks speak for themselves. I don't need to know about the 'inner workings' of the group to see that. It's all there in the list itself.

    The door is not entirely shut towards more alternative or non-traditionalist scores (I'm happy that The Chemical Brothers and DRIVE were mentioned, at the very least), but I'm disappointed that 50 critics -- allegedly representing many different preferences, as you say -- still manage to come up with a list that leans heavily towards traditional Hollywood scores or those that are based on a more classically symphonic idiom.

    It's just another symptom that film music critics are often very much at odds with what non-film music specialists (but that are still very much into film and music) mention as the highlights of the year.
    I am extremely serious.
  7. There are many different preferences but we all can come together and pick what is truly the best there is - at least to the majority of the film music-listening audience.

    I believe that I did choose some of the less well-known titles that I believe are the best there is, but more people felt that there were others that were just as valid choices.

    I'd be interested to see what your individual choices would have been for each of the categories.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
  8. And it is interesting to see how your own individual preferences appear to be adopted as the general consensus in order for the actual selection to be acceptable. That's how it looks from this part of the world anyway.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2012
    Thor wrote
    Well, I don't agree with that assessment and I think the picks speak for themselves.


    Yes they do! It's a nice, well rounded selection of scores featuring music from all part's the world featuring many different styles and sounds.

    Thor wrote
    I don't need to know about the 'inner workings' of the group to see that.


    But yet you still have no clue!

    Thor wrote
    It's all there in the list itself.


    Right... the best of the best!

    Thor wrote
    The door is not entirely shut towards more alternative or non-traditionalist scores (I'm happy that The Chemical Brothers and DRIVE were mentioned, at the very least), but I'm disappointed that 50 critics -- allegedly representing many different preferences, as you say


    Not allegedly... it's a fact!

    Thor wrote
    -- still manage to come up with a list that leans heavily towards traditional Hollywood scores or those that are based on a more classically symphonic idiom.


    Because those scores represent the best of the best! Plain and simple.

    Thor wrote
    It's just another symptom that film music critics are often very much at odds with what non-film music specialists (but that are still very much into film and music) mention as the highlights of the year.


    It's all subjective!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2012 edited
    Whatever, dude. I've made my point and I still stick to it.
    I am extremely serious.
  9. Erik Woods wrote

    Thor wrote
    -- still manage to come up with a list that leans heavily towards traditional Hollywood scores or those that are based on a more classically symphonic idiom.


    Because those scores represent the best of the best! Plain and simple.

    Thor wrote
    It's just another symptom that film music critics are often very much at odds with what non-film music specialists (but that are still very much into film and music) mention as the highlights of the year.


    It's all subjective!

    -Erik-


    My head hurts. Does 2+2 also equal 5?
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2012 edited
    Thor wrote
    Whatever, dude. I've made my point and I still stick to it.


    Fantastic! You rock!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2012 edited
    franz_conrad wrote
    Erik Woods wrote

    Thor wrote
    -- still manage to come up with a list that leans heavily towards traditional Hollywood scores or those that are based on a more classically symphonic idiom.


    Because those scores represent the best of the best! Plain and simple.

    Thor wrote
    It's just another symptom that film music critics are often very much at odds with what non-film music specialists (but that are still very much into film and music) mention as the highlights of the year.


    It's all subjective!

    -Erik-


    My head hurts. Does 2+2 also equal 5?


    moon

    EDIT: Humm... I admit that the above is poorly worded.

    Anyway, people are more than welcome to like what they want to like but don't pretend to know what happens behind the scenes at the IFMCA, who votes for what and how the voting system is structured.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  10. Oh you witty fellow, you! wink
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2012
    No critics are ever going to be truly representative of the body of "consumers" they (in some way) represent. In 2011, Alvin and the Chipmunks: Chipwrecked made (considerably) more money than The Tree of Life, so I guess Thor must be up in arms that it didn't receive a higher critical reception. Otherwise it's hardly representative.

    I see his point, but it's no different from any other field. A pulp thriller is never going to get on the shortlist for the Booker prize.
  11. I think that the argument is whether a non-orchestral film score or at least a score not written in the traditional symphonic idiom can be regarded as a work of art by mainstream critics.

    While I agree that non-traditionally written film scores (case in point Blade Runner and Ghost in the Shell) can be masterpieces in and of themselves, I don't think this year's selection of non-traditional scores is in any way representative of the non-traditional side of the art and Thor's arguments may be very own geared towards his own preferences at the moment.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 13th 2012 edited
    I think The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo is a MAJOR step up from the bland, incredibly overrated and totally useless score that was The Social Network. At least Reznor and Ross' Tattoo score had some sort of dramatic arc and really helped enhance the movie going experience. I couldn't imagine any other score in that film... not saying that a more traditional one wouldn't have worked. The issue is whether or not it was one of the best scores of the year... and in my opinion I say no but it was very good. I wouldn't put it at the top of the heap but I think it was a very strong effort (as hear din the film - not so much as a stand alone listen) and didn't deserve the bashing it got from the majority of film score fans.

    I also really enjoyed Drive... I thought Martinez's was effective (especially that opening scene) but I think it was the songs more so than the score that really had an effect on me.

    I have yet to experience Martinez's Contagion. I own the film and I'm looking forward to viewing it but I can't say that I enjoy the score on it's own.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!