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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014
    Demetris wrote
    It'd be very interesting to hear it first smile Why haven't you all these years? It's a truly brilliant stand-alone musical work. Symphonic and grand.


    Is it available anywhere?
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014
    Captain Future wrote
    Demetris wrote
    It'd be very interesting to hear it first smile Why haven't you all these years? It's a truly brilliant stand-alone musical work. Symphonic and grand.


    Because I don't know where to get it.


    Next time Hans Zimmer does an "ask me anything" session, ask him where he got his copy!
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    Demetris wrote
    Zimmer says about his rejected TROY:

    Hans Zimmer
    On Gabriel's film they where making a Gladiator type film. He wanted to do ART. It's tough to hand a Picasso into a mal-mart...


    Quite a good point i think; the movie was essentially summer pop-corn, the score was so grand and beautiful, definitely for a much better and higher movie than what Troy actually was and which ended up getting a standard, just serviceable score. Your ideas?

    Once again, I find this comment, and the attitude it reveals, quite disturbing. Why not try and rise above what you're given? Why not try and improve, rather than simply match, the movie's quality? What's wrong with a little ambition?


    He did but studio mechanics don't work that way, evidently. (also see 300: rise of the whatever)
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthormarkrayen
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014
    I have also never heard it, despite the hype at the time. But just found it on youtube, and what fantastic music it is!
  1. Well, first off, I've seen comparrison clips of the film with both scores in tact, and Yared's not only fit, it elevated that poor film to a higher standard. Horner's was boring and quite frankly, at times not even servicable.

    Secondly, the scores, as a listening experience, has Yared ahead bya lightyear. It's a film scoring masterpiece. This "mal-mart" greatly benefitted from the Picasso.

    Thirly, from what I've heard -- and it could be incorrect, there was no order to have the score replaced, it was just worrisome appeasement. And that the test audience, reportedly (though unconfirmed) stemed from ONE GUY'S negative criticism of the score. One person.

    fourthloy, wake me when they reject your Picasso, Zimmy baby.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
  2. What Hans said doesn't have to disprove what you say. Hans stated only that Yared should have been on the test screening to notice the reactions. Again, it's not against Yared, nobody considered offering him that courtesy on the production side.

    Also, what you said about Yared in the picture is the only positive opinion I actually heard about the score in the final film. Again, if there were synchronization issues, which is basically what I've been told (never saw it, to be honest, but numerous friends discussed this with me), nobody told Yared that the synchronization is off and the cues have to get revised. It was Petersen's or the producers' duty to tell him so.

    All I've heard about the rejection of Yared's (including my own interview with Yared himself years ago) score, and again, Hans' comment rather proves the point for me, makes the whole ordeal a problem of miscommunication and mishandling of the composer. Synchronization issues mean that nobody told the composer to revise his cues or re-record them to fit the picture. He wasn't invited to the test screening (composers sometimes are there, I remember Hans admitting being there with Sherlock Holmes) and he was decisively against testing the score on a screening, calling, himself!, the pieces unfinished, but Petersen convinced him to do so.

    In case of both comments regarding the rejection of the previous scores (Troy and the 300 sequel), Hans said merely that the composers who went weren't exactly in touch with the situation at hand, that's all his comments mean. But it doesn't say anything against Yared and/or Jusid: he rather defended the way they work, just said that they should be more pushy in defense of their vision and/or, in fact, the whole project. But your irrational hatred for anything related to Hans Zimmer, including many personal attacks before on your side, doesn't let you read through what he is saying.

    Hans' general message in the discussions was for the composers to actually start defending their own vision that supersedes the temp-track and to write music that's better than whatever temp has been given. It's not that he rejects the talent of new voices. He specifically said: If you didn't convince the director/producers to your vision, you didn't try hard enough. So it's more like: don't settle for the lowest common denominator. Be brave and fight for yourself.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  3. We're not going to do a lot of agreing aparently. I think no compsoer shoud ever be at a test screening. The score will always be subject and you're not going to please everybody and there's no point to hear a bunch of dudes who've never owned a film score CD or LP a day in their life, and probably wonder why Justin Bieber didn't do a theme song for the film.

    I said this once a few years ago and it bears repeating and updating:
    Who gives a fuck what the test audience thinks? Let's say they are testing a new Jurrasic Park film. LEt's say the score is good, but the test audience doens't like it. So what? Do you think any of these folks will NOT see the film when it opens, because of the score? NO.

    About two years ago, somebody uploaded an unreleased documentary to the Disney animated, "The Emporer's New Groove". We got to see Shaiman sit in with a test audience, get negative reviews, then somebody (presumably one of the producers) say they're going to rescore it. Did he need that shit? NO. I thankfully saved the relevent audio, since some of his rejected score was heard.



    The implication from what Zimmer said it that the film was crap and Yared gave it too much. Woe be the days of the film scoring world where one give beyond what is needed; lest we forget, Goldsmith made many a fine film score to a piss poor film. And what ever you do, don't think about aiming high -- aim low, regardless of your project; don't give your best -- you'll still get paid in the end, right?
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014 edited
    Hans points were very spot on i must say, logical and Pawel is also right here. Hans didn't say anything bad against the composers, he isn't pro the test screenings ( i am not either) but still, he just presented how the industry works (sadly i should add, but it's like that whether we like it or not), him being the most business-oriented and business-successful composer of them all and being right in this case.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  4. That Hans is a business-savvy guy, I don't doubt...I daresay that's gotten him far further than his music on its own terms ever would have. And I don't want to agree with Justin's blind rage-hatred of him...but I can't help but feel that Hans is trying to get talent to fit the system, rather than - as it should be - getting the system to accommodate and recognize talent.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
    Ed, you're right, i felt that this is his approach indeed, as you said it. But my question, since i am as far as possible from a romantic point of view of life anymore, is the 2nd option you mention actually possible today? in the world of fast entertainment, computer music and hordes of composers ?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  5. Hans didn't imply that he wrote too good a score for Troy. He said that he's overdone it. That's something different. Overdone in terms of convention and all that stuff. He doesn't imply that overachieving, writing too well is wrong. He merely said that there is the convention rift between the two scores. A movie that is a faux-Gladiator was scored like it was a Golden Age epic. What's wrong with that? The fact, that the movie and the score don't connect on a conventional level. In other words, it's like you gave Bourne Ultimatum a score sounding like Rambo III. It wouldn't work for that particular film.

    It's by no means about the quality of work Yared did. It's about how it's different on a purely conventional level.

    Ed and D., Hans NEVER said that talent has to fit the system. It's not about how the talent fits the system, but more a personality issue. If you don't want to fit in with the temp and do your own stuff - great, but: 1) Fight for what you are doing all the time, he encourages that openly; 2) Adapt your working method to the system - be in constant contact while you write, play your music as often as possible, argue about the temp-track and so on.

    Be a guy they want to work with as a collaborator (Hans is *loved* here, BTW), but also beat them with the quality of your work. As he and David Arnold said in the discussion: If what you do is REALLY good, it will stay in the picture. Hans, from his experience, merely added: Communication is crucial.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  6. Even if it's not possible, that doesn't mean the composers shouldn't fight for it!
  7. And Hans actually encourages that in his comments.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
    Pawel we agree with everything; my only objection when i was reading what he wrote, to which i agree 100% when it comes to working in Hollywood, whether we like it or not, was that: how come all of his composers sound like emulating him and little Z's? Not talking about his own works, but the rest of the RC, if he lets and encourages his young talent to be themsevles and outdo themselves and put themselves out there so much, how come they sound like Zimmer L.E editions?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  8. This is indeed weird. Back in Media Ventures, Hans would give projects tailored to styles of the composers that got them (Powell and HGW with their orchestral animations, for example). He'd pick a composer based on what he knew of their writing style. I don't know how it works right now.

    I witnessed a certain conversation on the session, when he mentioned that he wants clear and cut styles from the composers he's hiring to RCP. I'm not sure I am allowed the name of the composer that participated in this discussion and now is actually a part of the group.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014 edited
    Now who's gonna reply this to Zimmer in that facebook discussion? I am not that crazy wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  9. It could be asked privately, for example, and I *am* considering this.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
    Yared should have released the score on a CD for wider exposure, and then just called it something else to avoid rights issues. Or music 'inspired by' etc. We've seen it before.
    I am extremely serious.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
    Thor wrote
    Yared should have released the score on a CD for wider exposure, and then just called it something else to avoid rights issues. Or music 'inspired by' etc. We've seen it before.


    What? A "music inspired by" and it isn't full of rock and pop??? Don't be silly. wink

    good call Thor. beer
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  10. It wouldn't have worked. The rights are to the notes, not to the title. Yared got a cease and desist situation after merely posting bits on his site, let alone releasing a promo!
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  11. Edmund Meinerts wrote
    ...but I can't help but feel that Hans is trying to get talent to fit the system, rather than - as it should be - getting the system to accommodate and recognize talent.


    "Should" being the operative word. Hollywood is a business, not a charity.

    Thor wrote
    Yared should have released the score on a CD for wider exposure, and then just called it something else to avoid rights issues. Or music 'inspired by' etc. We've seen it before.


    Yared doesn't own the rights to do so. In fact, I believe he all-too-happily sent copies to anyone who asked for it; and burnt a few bridges in doing so. Had he been a bit more humble in defeat, there may have been a chance of getting it released, but alas, he went on a rampage instead...

    <s>
    www.synchrotones.wordpress.com | www.synchrotones.co.uk | @Synchrotones | facebook | soundcloud | youtube
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
    I'm sure we could all get on better by tippy-toeing around coke boosted ego inflated tossers.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  12. Can't we all just get along?
    www.synchrotones.wordpress.com | www.synchrotones.co.uk | @Synchrotones | facebook | soundcloud | youtube
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
    Synchrotones wrote
    Can't we all just get along?


    I'm sure we can hug

    ...the rest of the world?? slant
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
    • CommentAuthormarkrayen
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2014
    An important thing Zimmer briefly mentioned, and that I don't think has been commented on here, is that sometimes a composer needs to go and knock on the director's door and demand feedback on new ideas or readily drafted material. A director's vision is ever-changing as the post-production period unravels its surprises and new ideas. A film composer needs to take the initiative to involve him or herself in the collaboration continuously, and I think that is a universal challenge among composers who are often seen as "outsiders" in a production. It's really hard to get yourself involved. Many directors view the dialogue with the composer as particularly challenging in comparison to other collaborators. It can be fairly uncomplicated to discuss specific ambitions and solutions with a film editor or DP, whereas discussing with a composer is usually far more abstract, linguistically demanding, and often one is forced to speak in riddles and metaphors when the musical vocabulary is untrained or lacking altogether - or one may merely refer to a temp-track, which can be severely unsatisfying and frustrating for a composer. Education is key here, and students of film and film music should practice the art of collaboration with one another already early on in their student hood.

    Without knowing too much about the Troy situation, it would seem as though the two parties neglected the vitality of a good and continuous dialogue. And, unfair as it is, the composer suffered a terrible consequence.

    I must admit to finding myself surprised that so many support the tossing out of a potentially brilliant score. I don't know exactly what the arguments were, other than that Zimmer hinted it was seen as too "artistic", and that others refer to rumours of synchronisation problems or other kinds of mis-matches between sound and images. The music is perfectly functional genre-wise, but does has active musical ideas that might draw the attention off-screen, which doesn't happen often nowadays. However, Alex North's brilliant score for Spartacus has many inspired and creative moments where the music actively communicates, almost like a counterpoint to the images. I can easily imagine a modern director throwing that score out for being too "artistic", mind-blowingly brilliant as it is. I'm not sure if the comparison is valid though, since I don't know much about that situation.

    I have recently attended a few screenings of new films with critics, sound engineers, DPs, directors and producers. They often make frustrating claims about the soundtrack that I feel are made far too spontaneously, and more in ignorance and lack of vision than anything else. For a disturbing amount of people it would seem that, no matter the quality of the music, if it takes the foreground in ANY kind of setting, its a bad thing...

    Just because the business side of things have evolved in a specific direction doesn't mean we should stop defending good and decent treatment of great art and artists. A composer who dares to be innovative in this mainstream world is one I would far rather support than many others!
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2014
    Mark, very good post. I loved your kind of scoring, and your Anne and Alet score last year backs your arguments above very tightly. Gorgeous music, keep it up.

    As for the solution, i think it's the mid point. Of course Zimmer's "was too artistic" argument is ridiculous (what does that even mean? we should all stop making and celebrating actual music with themes, orchestration, arrangements, structure and musicianship and replace all with generic drone a la Oscar-winning "Gravity"? no way) but indeed he makes some very logical and powerful points about the business side of it all. It's a mid-situation, the golden point where Artistry on behalf of the composer meets with the utterly professional business-man inside of him; if it's only artistry, then it's very difficult to land projects, i think you'll agree with me on this one. beer
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  13. Say what you will about Gravity but it certainly was not a "generic drone"!
    • CommentAuthormarkrayen
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2014
    Demetris, I totally agree. We probably also agree that if a test screening reveals necessary changes, throwing the composer out is a last resort, not a first.

    It's surprising that Yared was not even offered the chance to make revisions, or defend his work. It would seem he was used as a scapegoat, and in desperation the film makers hoped a fresh new score would salvage their film. After all, they had probably long since suspected the film wasn't turning out to be the masterpiece they were hoping for!

    It seems strange the composer contracts in Hollywood wouldn't include a paragraph protecting the artists from those situations, when your work is rejected without first being offered the chance to make revisions...

    Thanks for the comment on Anne & Alet, by the way! beer
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2014
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    Say what you will about Gravity but it certainly was not a "generic drone"!


    Well i beg to differ; read, if you want, all the excellent points made in facebook by Robert Folk, a member of the Academy.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  14. I'm still unable to find most of that discussion. confused