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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTime7 days ago edited
    @Pawel.

    1. I'm not quite sure where you're getting this. I don't think he even mentions Williams in this section. Why do you think he's comparing Zimmer to Williams and saying that Williams comes out on top?

    5. Again, I'm not sure where you're getting that it's comparing Zimmer to anyone. That section of the book, like I said, is an overview of the future of neoclassicism. Also, I think you may be bringing your personal distaste for (the ridiculous) Clemmensen into this. Certainly most people will bring up Zimmer's 'simplicity' as a negative trait, but I don't think it is has to be anything more than a style. I'm not Zimmer's biggest fan and don't much like his recent scores, but noting an aspect of Zimmer's style isn't the same as criticizing it. To say that something is derogatory because it reminds you of something else you read doesn't make sense. I think King Arthur has some of the most simplistic themes ever, but I love listening to it!

    7. Well I disagree with you on Beyond Rangoon being anything like low-key. It's melodramatic to the extreme. Think of the opening of the 2009 Star Trek where the ship is crashing in the battle and Giacchino plays this slow, gorgeous love theme instead of epic action music. I rarely see things like that from Zimmer. He tends to play exactly what's happening. That to me is why Audissino correctly describes him as "very direct".
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTime7 days ago edited
    Aidabaida wrote
    7. Well I disagree with you on Beyond Rangoon being anything like low-key. It's melodramatic to the extreme. Think of the opening of the 2009 Star Trek where the ship is crashing in the battle and Giacchino plays this slow, gorgeous love theme instead of epic action music. I rarely see things like that from Zimmer. He tends to play exactly what's happening. That to me is why Audissino correctly describes him as "very direct".


    I know this might set off a new "in general" versus "specific" thing again, but I was immediately reminded of that Injection moment in M:I-2. And then there's basically the whole of Thin Red Line. I think the bottom line is, Zimmer is very well capable of going against what is happening on screen, if the film calls for it. He may not have always come across these opportunities in the entertainment films he's done, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about the man himself.
    Procrastinate now. Don't put it off.
  1. It's his general preference. Somewhere in the early 90s Hans noticed that if he scored "directly to picture", he lacks the technical background to do so and he might even got the orchestrations wrong at times (Walker might have a huge impact on his early scores, but at the end of the day, there ARE awkward orchestration choices in his earlier stuff, Bird on a Wire sounds just bad at times, even if it has the Danny Elfman orchestration team, including Steve Bartek). So he wrote big thematic arcs over the event, sometimes ignoring obvious synchronization points and that's when he really started to click.

    If we look at the love theme against destruction. There is a dramatic elegy-over-massacre technique he employed from The Thin Red Line (banalizing the score for the sake of discussion right now, if you want more, look up my article on the score featured on this site), The Last Samurai and Tears of the Sun. Da Vinci Code doesn't really have bona fide action music, with the closest thing being a Herrmannesque string cue. Going back, what would you say about a Mahler pastiche underscoring a scene where a character is fed his own brain in Hannibal?

    I still stand by Beyond Rangoon being low-key with some notable exceptions like track 5 and the last one. Something like Memories of the Dead plays very somber in the film and doesn't give out a "scream" over the flashback of a character finding her dead family which is delivered in a high angle wide shot to emphasize the emotions. The music is just... sad. Same from Our Ways Will Part. Except this being an example of going against the picture, with the beginning of the cue being a series of static shots where the character musters up to cut some bamboo if I remember correctly, the visuals are kinda "very calm" (the film itself is surprisingly static, probably aided by the fact that Boorman was already an older filmmaker capable of a somehow stoic style). And contrary to the visuals, Hans goes in the character's mind to emphasize how she gains a desperate energy to survive in the scene. It may initially feel a bit jarring in the film, but that's the risk you take when you try going against the very visuals.

    The book is generally about Williams, isn't it? So thinking of the future, he resolves to describing Hans Zimmer with a series of blanket statements and not really bringing any evidence for that? And yes, I have a disdain for Clemmensen's bias against not just Zimmer but for anything that doesn't follow the John Williams formula. And I have disdain for mistaking criticizing the with criticizing the work, which mistake he seems to have mastered.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTime6 days ago
    And I have disdain for mistaking criticizing the with criticizing the work, which mistake he seems to have mastered.

    Before I respond to this post, I need to know what you were trying to say here. biggrin
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  2. Whenever Clemmensen disagrees with a composer (this also "hit" other composers) he tends to attack the man rather personally than attack the work itself. It's a bit like "if you don't write the music the way I like, then you are an idiot". Horner got a lot of flak, e.g., for his approach to Patriot Games and "Gaelic Thunderheart" aside (that's simplifying the score, but not without merit), there's at least one scene where Horner builds an overall arc for something that unfolds on a couple of levels. In other words, for a sequence that uses parallel editing to show a few assassination attempts (trying to kill the main character and, in a separate attempt, his family), Horner focuses on building continuity and the revelation that it's all one plot. Because of that (and it's a technique that later became a Christopher Nolan staple!), Clemmensen essentially considers to be an example of an unintelligent (!) approach.

    See, the fact that each dream level in Inception doesn't have a separate sound makes Hans Zimmer a complete idiot in his eyes.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTime6 days ago edited
    So I'm confused on why you're bringing Clemmensen into this. I agree that he's as stubborn ideologue, but just because Audissino says something that reminds you of Clemmensen doesn't mean one agrees with the other... If we're debating the validity of a description, could we stick with that description?
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  3. In what I said before I said that Clemmensen and Audissino seem to agree that lack of leitmotivic structure equals lack of intellect. That's how I understood his point and it's something I would disagree with vehemently even if Clemmensen didn't state it.

    My point is that such one-sided view is unfair and untrue.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTime6 days ago
    Well, I agree with you on that point, but I don't think Audissino meant that.

    On the point of Zimmer's music being direct, do you view it is a criticism to say that?
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  4. Simplification of something quite complex and in case of some scores potential criticism. But generally speaking, no, just a blanket statement that simplifies the composer's output.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTime6 days ago edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Simplification of something quite complex and in case of some scores potential criticism. But generally speaking, no, just a blanket statement that simplifies the composer's output.


    But isn't that the point of paragraph-summaries? A simplification?
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  5. If it borders on falsifying, then no. Paragraph-summaries aren't supposed to be blanket statements. Thor has a more nuanced academic analysis of the paragraph than I do (and he made it in a summary form soon after you posted that quote). The reason why I'm not going in that direction as much as I could is that I'm a bit tired of being very academic.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  6. PawelStroinski wrote
    I'm a bit tired of being very academic.

    Aidabaida, you're pretty new here, so I doubt you will realize what an achievement this is. shocked
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTime5 days ago edited
    Captain Future wrote
    I can't take Clemmensen's Zimmer related reviews serious any more. I respect the man's competence otherwise but here he is riding his hobby horse. (? Er gibt dem Affen Zucker.) It's clearly part of his marketing strategy.

    Volker


    I think Clemmensen's secretly longs for Zimmer's swashendicken
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.