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  1. To be honest, I was inspired to start this topic in the discussion that happened in the Now Playing thread.

    There is a huge surge of self-taught composers, with the biggest breakthrough being the appearance of Hans Zimmer and Danny Elfman on the landscape back in the 1980s. The interesting bit is that both started from a similar place (pop/rock stardom in the 1980s) and went into film music because they really dreamt of it (in the first case through Ennio Morricone, in the other one - through Bernard Herrmann). It really kickstarted in late 1990s/early 2000s when people stating their pride in NOT knowing notation (Clint Mansell comes to mind) started to appear and make their impact.

    The bit that may be controversial is that the genre is defined by an untrained composer, saying that he's a better film composer because of his lack of musical education (the idea being that the notes come from his heart and reaction to the movie rather than training which may go beyond the film's core, I'll make a point about it a bit later in this post). Also the popularity of his writing, the PR he performs even if he admittedly hates it as he publicly stated about a month ago (my own experience with his PR is, to say the least, interesting, but that's I think something I should leave for myself). The obvious thing to start with is that film music has changed. I'll try to begin with my own opinion on the matter.

    I am all against uniformisation of film music and this is the strongest point I'd like to make for now. The fact that there is a largely popular trend that makes everything sound electronic and all that stuff that many people despise is something that I dislike not because it happens at all, but because it happens everywhere. Whether we call it a scoring style or a scoring paradigm, as Thor likes to call it, I believe that there is not a bad paradigm or a good one per se, but rather a bad (rather wrong!) or good one for a particular project. I actually tend to defend the Batman sound for the movies it accompanies. I happen to defend Inception, which is a genuine attempt at writing something unique for Inception and kudos to Hans for writing it the way he did, even if the score, one of the most important (and to me the best) recent scores is an admittedly acquired taste. But a Batman like score in everything else from Transformers (of all things) to wherever people think it could fit is the WRONG thing for the genre as a whole, because there is no attempt at being unique and bring in something new, even a new personality granted by a composer's idiosyncrasies, be it harmonic or phrasing preferences.

    The moment where I tend to disagree with these assessments is when the only person blamed for this is Hans Zimmer, when, in reality, I believe that the bigger fault is the producers. Knowing him personally and a bit of his scoring process, I know that he genuinely tries (and actually, while his PR is overblown, which even he can recognize) and believes he does bring something unique to a particular project and I think when he says that he tries to cut Batman off Superman, he really genuinely attempts at that exactly. The cluelessness of modern producers leads to using the wrong scores and asking to keep with it, even if the composer would really want something else. It *is* a problem with modern film music and not only the famous brass chord (which is REALLY not the most important thing about Inception, it's just the loudest one) called Horn of Doom (a good name, admittedly) is the problem. How many scores were simply rehashing the Bourne trilogy at the behest of the powers that be? How many scores were doing, to get back to Hans, Journey to the Line all the way, because the director and/or producer really loved it? Even Remote Control Productions is, I think, flawed at design, because while I know (not just from him, but also from certain statements of the group members) he looks for genuine voices to work there (both as additional composers for him, but also as standalone composers getting projects *thanks* to him), they are still treated as (financially, of course) Hans Zimmer-lite and nothing else. "Do me Hans Zimmer cheaply" is the reason for getting a Ramin Djawadi, not the fact that he has interesting harmonic developments, as showcased by Pacific Rim (e.g. Mako). It IS a huge problem.

    It is a sad thing indeed that a composer like James Horner gets replaced by Steve Jablonsky, though in that case the problem is not the fact that Jablonsky took over, but rather the fact that the movie seemed so problematic that the whole post-production crew got fired by the studio, go figure (Horner didn't get to start working, I think). Trained musicians bring more complex orchestral writing (though I would argue it doesn't fit everywhere) and also more complex and rich harmony. Conrad Pope recently complained about lack of major chords/major key writing and rich harmonies in film music. I think it brings up by something alarming said by James Newton Howard when doing interview rounds for The Dark Knight: Film music shouldn't say too much (or was it actually "anything"?) about the characters. That's not exactly true and this will make my last paragraph for those that might end up with a tl;dr kind of reply.

    As every aspect of film making, music is a semiotic language. A set of signs adding to the semantics (meaning) of the final work. Composers working in Hollywood (it was said in Kraków unanimously by Don Davis, Abel Korzeniowski and, even, Trevor Morris) acknowledge that they are a part of the team in which everyone (including the director!) can be fired, but at the end of the day, they are there to serve and tell a particular story. A richer musical approach than just blasting power chords says more about the characters and the scene. So on the one hand we have an overflowing approach (music is EVERYWHERE), which, I believe, comes from the fear that the visuals don't say enough on their own, on the other hand the fear that music can actually say too much (it can, but you won't know if you let the composer try, for God's sake!) in a scene. Then what should it say? All composers agree that they underscore the subtext of the scene, with the perfect match being really not overdoing the said subtext (a relevant thing, film music CAN be too much for a scene and this is where I wave to Edward Zwick and Ron Howard).

    Personally I believe there is a place for Hans Zimmer and more educated composers and even those self-taught composers that have and work on getting a complex skill set, like my friend Maciek. I think film music will recover from this electronic fashion and allow things to get back to bigger diversity. The electronic stuff sells, but viewers more and more care for diversity in the genre. I hope Romeo and Juliet will be a bigger success, because Korzeniowski's score is both a beauty and a combination between minimalist tendencies and good old-school orchestral lushness with virtuoso concerto-like elements.

    I'd love to hear your say about it.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  2. That's a very insightful post, Pawel. Thanks for starting this conversation. I, for one, really appreciate a composer who is classically trained. I love lush harmonies, and even harmonies that don't intuitively make sense, but really work for some reason (and it seems that classically trained composers know when to "break rules" better than self-taught ones). I love counterpoint, and long-lined themes. I have a special respect for composers who can compose at a desk and who don't need a keyboard or computer. That amazes me. I also love composers who understand orchestration so well that they know just how they want to orchestra to play the music they've written.

    I have some favorite scores written by composers who were never classically trained, of course, and I'll admit that regardless of their training, they all know a great deal more about scoring a film than I do. And I marvel at a composer like Elfman whose compositions can be so elegant and/or technical these days, and who has learned it all by doing.

    But the composers I enjoy most are classically trained. The most consistently enjoyable composer for me is Mark McKenzie, who is very classically trained, and who composes and orchestrates all his own music. Indeed he has said in interviews that he can't fathom not orchestrating your own music. How else could you get it to sound like what you wanted? That resonates with me. I also very consistently enjoy scores by John Williams, James Horner, Philippe Rombi, and Debbie Wiseman. I know about Williams and Horner's backgrounds, but I don't know if Rombi or Wiseman are classically trained. I suppose that they are, but I might be wrong. Delerue is another favorite of mine (who also composed without instruments), and sometimes while holding a wine glass in one hand and carrying on a conversation! (The liner notes to intrada's MEMORIES OF ME are priceless.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorplindboe
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2013 edited
    I don't really care if the musicians are classically trained or not, as long as I enjoy the music. That said, I'm one of those seemingly few who don't think that film music is in a dire state today. In my eyes, there's more diversity now than there ever has been. Sure there are trends in film music, but when you look at the entire film market, even the most popular trends only appear in a tiny fraction of scores. For example take the wailing woman effect, that Gladiator made popular, or take the horn of doom. People often say that these things are ubiquitous and they're quickly considered clichés. But try to look at films produced a single year, count up the number of scores where these effects appear and divide by the total number of films. The number won't exactly be huge.

    Peter smile
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2013
    I'm with Peter here.

    I think this discussion is really a 'storm in a water glass', as we say up here.

    There's no denying a certain homogenization of sound in Hollywood action film music, but that's really just ONE small aspect of the current diversity. Heck, even Hollywood action film music is more diverse than we give it credit for.

    I LOVE the fact that artists from the pop/rock/electronica world are coming in to do film scores. That doesn't always guarantee a good score, of course, but I love the ideology -- especially when you end up with a Daft Punk or M83 or Trent Reznor doing brilliant stuff. The proof is always in the pudding. One should never judge by background alone.
    I am extremely serious.
  3. To me the problem is not the background, really. Hans Zimmer, Danny Elfman, Clint Mansell, they all showed their prowess in what I believe is the most important thing about film composing - their understanding of films themselves as a work of art. I'd give my favourite example here and show The Thin Red Line as an example of a self-taught composer perfectly understanding a difficult movie (not just because of the scoring/postproduction nightmare it was, but because of the message of it, and so on).

    The problem is that bringing new talent into the genre works two ways. On one hand, they are the new talent, hopefully a great voice to come into the industry and this is something that gets me very excited, but there is a dangerous flipside to this coin.

    They are inexperienced. As much as appreciated Tron: Legacy is, little is known about the fact that Disney got involved in the scoring process, even involving RCP in it and actually RCP composers ghostwrote on the score, potentially even (never confirmed) with some cues written by Hans Zimmer himself... So what I mean, is that, and it's a huge danger to the genre, I believe (Disney wasn't very happy about Kosinski wanting Daft Punk for the film, but they caved in due to his sheer persistence), it's easier to pester with someone inexperienced than it is to do it with a guy like Zimmer or Horner, or whoever. Just because they don't have the experience, the studio may see them as easier to play with and just demand what they want, because if not you, there are thousands who will do it cheaper for you.

    I think that's a huge danger.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2013
    It can also be a benefit, because they come into the artform with a totally fresh, virginal perspective. Maybe they can bring some of their experience with programmatic, conceptual music into the visual medium of film.

    In the end, stuff like this really has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, IMO.

    The same goes for guys like Johnny Greenwood. He is -- as you all know -- classically trained in addition to his rock work with Radiohead. So not having done any film scores before, he brings ALL of that into his film scoring, and it works wonders.
    I am extremely serious.
  4. Sure, but you discuss a great situation like Greenwood's, when he basically has a lot of freedom to do what he wants. As I said, if a studio uses the lack of experience as a muscle to basically get whatever they want, the creativity will be hugely impaired.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2013 edited
    And I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. My interest isn't really in what the studio wants or doesn't want, my interest is in the end result. If an artist comes into a film that hasn't done a film score -- and is hired based on his/her/their "sound" more than their experience -- well, then that's great. I assume that means they'll also let said artist do "their thing", as that's the reason for hiring them in the first place.

    At the end of day, the proof is in the pudding. If the "experiment" fails, it fails. If it's a success, it's a success.

    Don't get me wrong...I think the hiring of experienced film composers is great, and I'm a proponent of (film music) education as much as possible, being an academic myself. But I also think it would be very restrictive to limit the areas of possibility to that.
    I am extremely serious.
  5. What I mean is that sometimes they can praise OMG, we hired, say, Jean Michel Jarre, and and the end hear Inception, not because Jarre wanted to do that, but because he didn't have a choice.

    In general I am a huge proponent of new view on cinema through composers that have no experience, but the studios, for God's sake, should let them learn the ropes on their own. I know of cases like Oldfield's work on The Killing Fields (a fantastic score in the end), where nobody schooled him and it ended up that he doesn't want to have anything to do with film anymore.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  6. And to add some more controversy. Do I think that scores like The THin Red Line or Inception could have been written by a classically trained composer? And my answer is, actually, no.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  7. Thor wrote
    especially when you end up with a Daft Punk

    Mhm. punk punk

    or M83

    Yep. punk


    or Trent Reznor doing brilliant stuff

    You lost me. vomit
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2013
    PawelStroinski wrote
    And to add some more controversy. Do I think that scores like The THin Red Line or Inception could have been written by a classically trained composer? And my answer is, actually, no.


    Why not?
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2013 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    What I mean is that sometimes they can praise OMG, we hired, say, Jean Michel Jarre, and and the end hear Inception, not because Jarre wanted to do that, but because he didn't have a choice.

    In general I am a huge proponent of new view on cinema through composers that have no experience, but the studios, for God's sake, should let them learn the ropes on their own. I know of cases like Oldfield's work on The Killing Fields (a fantastic score in the end), where nobody schooled him and it ended up that he doesn't want to have anything to do with film anymore.


    It would seem strange to hire Jarre and not let him do his "Jarre thing". I can't think of any examples where they've hired a radical artist for a film score, and then forced said artist to compose something other than what he's good at. It seems to be a theoretical problem, IMO.
    I am extremely serious.
  8. Martijn wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    And to add some more controversy. Do I think that scores like The THin Red Line or Inception could have been written by a classically trained composer? And my answer is, actually, no.


    Why not?


    I think it's a matter of simply different thinking of colors and things like that. The first score is particularly a proof of throwing away all he knew about orchestra (admittedly little) and starting from scratch. And adapting to the ever changing demands, which is far easier if you don't think structurally of basic symphonic development (as amazing as James Horner's, PhD orchestral writing is in The New World, his sense of structure and concentrating on that would be a detriment to the final film, which led to basically cutting it almost altogether!). In a relation between form and function, it's a very conscious decision do concentrate on function, which to Hans, BTW, is an element of pride (whether he made blunders or not, and he made quite a lot of them recently, is out of the discussion here, it's the way he thinks that matters).

    Inception... Classical training, unless you grew up listening to ambient material, makes one, I believe, think in terms of classical writing. Granted, the aforementioned Horner actually made quite important (for his career) attempts at a more ambient type of writing, but the kind of rock thinking Hans Zimmer has, I think is fairly a good example of thinking outside the box. While of course it's great to have a full orchestra playing with colours at all, it is very relevant to the "classical sound" fans, it's a rarity that a composer can eschew a full section of the orchestra to achieve a particular sound.

    The mistake we tend to make with this particular composer is applying classical orchestral thinking when that's the last thing he has. As weird as it sounds, one has to treat the orchestra as a single instrument which is a part of a rock band, rather than separate instruments in the ensemble that an orchestra surely is. It's more of a layer than a multi-layered ensemble in itself. Classically trained/classically aware composers/listeners may totally balk at it and it's understandable from that point of view, but the approach he has taken since the beginning of his career is I think something very interesting and shouldn't be judged so easily.

    Both from a producer and from a listener point of view, I think that stating that there is only one correct way to score a film is plain wrong. What we have to assess is what are the structural mistakes of a score like Man of Steel and not the fact that it has thematic simplicity (which to me very well applies to the core of the story as presented by Zack Snyder) or has ambient approach to it. The more problematic issue is that the General Zod theme is as generic as it is and completely ignores how relevant the Zod character is to the film's central theme - that of identity. In other words, much more relevant than the sonic concept (his best since Inception) is the fact that he somehow did something very weird for him, which is imploding his own concept, a very intelligent one at core, from the inside and that rather than underscoring action dramatically he went to fight with the sound effects rather than continuing the narrative he has chosen for the story. That's what I think is the problem of a score like Man of Steel. Because "on paper", as the phrase goes, the score has a better arc than the whole Batman trilogy. And nobody is willing to consider that, because lack of orchestra = no superhero.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  9. PawelStroinski wrote
    The mistake we tend to make with this particular composer is applying classical orchestral thinking when that's the last thing he has. As weird as it sounds, one has to treat the orchestra as a single instrument which is a part of a rock band, rather than separate instruments in the ensemble that an orchestra surely is. It's more of a layer than a multi-layered ensemble in itself. Classically trained/classically aware composers/listeners may totally balk at it and it's understandable from that point of view, but the approach he has taken since the beginning of his career is I think something very interesting and shouldn't be judged so easily.

    Well that's just a ridiculous way of thinking. Treating the orchestra like a single instrument, that is. There are so many different colors and timbres and textures you can get out of an orchestra that diminishing it like that (the way Zimmer partially does, by eschewing woodwinds and most of the brass) is severely limiting. I mean, what if you flipped it the other way around? What if you said that a composer was treating a rock band as a single instrument, rather than "the ensemble that it surely is." I don't think Zimmer would do that, and to be honest I don't think he does it with the orchestra either - yes, he limits himself, but certainly not to the point of total monophony.
  10. I'm not saying that he limits himself to total monophony. What I am saying is that he is thinking of the bigger picture. I liken his approach to a rock band/instrument approach not because he doesn't write for several instruments and doesn't have polyphony (unless your name is King Arthur), but rather becaue he takes a more holistic look at the soundscape he wants to achieve. I mean, take a look at the soundscape of Crimson Tide and think why he quit woodwinds there. On the other hand, his more orchestrally traditional scores like romantic comedies tend to get rid of brass instruments (Spanglish, As Good As It Gets).

    In other words, for Hans electronics aren't an added value to a full orchestra, but rather orchestra is part of a general ensemble consisting of everything that he deems necessary to achieve a certain soundscape. What I call the rock approach (and what Hans, I think, partly admits saying that he regards himself much as an album producer) is that his view isn't that soloists and electronics add necessary colour to the orchestra, but rather treats every part of the soundscape (percussion, synthesizers, soloists, orchestra) as equal means to achieve what he's looking for in a particular score.

    John Williams for example records the synthesizers, soloists and orchestra in the same room during the same session and as far as I know he's one of the last masters to do it (not sure about right now, but that's exactly how Horner's Willow was recorded, I think, definitely the orchestra recorded with the soloists, not sure about the Fairlight). And anyway, on the other hand Williams DID make the call of getting rid of a whole brass section on a score like Presumed Innocent featuring only a very well pronounced French horn, Horner did the same on To Gillian on Her 37th Birthday (also leaving only a French horn), he also quit brass on both House of Sand and Fog and Flightplan. In these cases I don't know the exact reasonings, but they were definitely made for color purposes.

    I don't necessarily say that Hans Zimmer's approach to ensemble is better than John Williams'. What I am saying is that rather than a general outlook we should, looking at film music, look at it from a project-specific point of view. I, for one, couldn't imagine the oppressive atmosphere of Crimson Tide with a woodwind section and I couldn't imagine a score like Pirates 3 without it. And yet, it was the same composer.

    And to be honest, this is the general message I have in this thread. To both listeners and film producers: The fact that we lost a certain project specific approach leads classic score fans to be frustrated by the 1000th mutation of Inception (no matter if they loved the original or hated it in the first place) and, on the other hand, it leads producers to demand the same sound from composers because it sells with the majority.

    Also, to the directors (yes, Zack Snyder, I'm looking at you)... Question the composer's choices in a while. If somebody says they want 12 drum sets recorded in unison, don't say "FUCK YEAH", but ask why. MAYBE it would lead to a discussion where this, admittedly interesting, idea would lead...
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  11. Well, Verdi has been accused of sometimes using the orchestra like a guitar in his operas. Yet I know next to nothing about that genre of classical music.

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  12. WHHHAT? What has an opera to do with a guitar?! Could you expand on that?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  13. Yeah, well you know, the ochestra is accompanying a song and every instrument is basically playing the same tune, like you were playing along on an acoustic guitar. You know, not finger picking but with all fingers. I did not find the English word. In German we would say "schrummeln".
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  14. I have to say that while I can't imagine a classically trained composer would/could write THIS score to Inception, if I was making that movie back in 2010 the first name that would come in mind to me would be probably Don Davis.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  15. Ah, I see Pawel. I've heard this argument before (from Nate Underkuffler, as it happens), that Zimmer doesn't want there to be a clear line between his synths and his orchestra, i.e. you can never quite tell what's orchestral and what's not, because (to Hans) it doesn't really matter what it is. All very well and good in theory, but what it leads to in practice is that horrendous overdubbing technique of his where he slathers synth orchestral samples over their real counterparts and makes everything sound fake. Like when you listen to the Man of Steel sketchbook and can't tell the difference between it and the final cues. And personally I find this to be one of Zimmer's most irritating tendencies, if not the most...here we have the currently most successful film composer running around with budgets and production values that other composers can only dream of, but the scores he puts out often sound like they were made on the cheap. It isn't always the case...it seems to vary from project to project, but often it is.

    Maybe it's just a personal thing, but I've always preferred the other approach, i.e. electronics as either added color or in and of themselves, rather than blurring with the orchestra the way Zimmer seems to want them to. I much prefer the way, say, John Powell or David Arnold or even Alan Silvestri (for all his faults in the area) handle their electronics, where there's always a sharp line between them and the orchestra and yet they still feel like they're contributing to the whole (okay...maybe not always Silvestri's). The production values just sound higher to me. So while I understand the reasoning behind what Zimmer does, I also think it's somewhat misguided and, to put it bluntly, I don't really like it, and I think it hurts his music.
  16. Have you tried the DTS Headphone mix of Man of Steel? It *does* add a bit. One of his arguments is that he thinks of his scores in 5.1 and doesn't even listen to the stereo masters, really, because that's not the way he writes and wants to hear them himself.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2013 edited
    This has been one of the more fascinating discussions Main Titles has had for quite sometime and I for one approve. It just happens to coincide with a topic on www.unsungcomposers.com which is talking about the demise of the classical orchestra in the United States and to a lesser extent Europe. This week the Minnesota Orchestra closed their doors for good. It seems that bloated salaries and ticket prices are the cause. The conclusion that we came to as a forum was classical music sold itself as an artistic experience rather than selling a particular composition. All of the master composers such as Tchaikovsky spent years studying composition, harmony and counterpoint. They were usually accomplished pianists and conductors, essentially music was their life. The romantic period (roughly 1800-1900) is no longer being pursued by most modern day classical composers and 21st century music has evolved just as much as the modern film score. If I live long enough I'm sure I'll hear synthesizer layers enhancing a new work or a traditional one. Somehow I don't think you can improve upon the Beethoven 'Eroica' symphony but they might try. In the case of Zimmer and Burton whatever they do seems to be successful and Hollywood really doesn't care as long as their films make a lot of money. They obviously don't need classical training but can wing it. But you'll likely not see Zimmer carrying on the tradition of say a new Brahms like symphony. A work of such magnitude would require some serious study.
    As most of you know I'm firmly placed in the Golden Age.

    Tom smile
    listen to more classical music!
  17. There are over 60 professional sinfonic orchestras in Germany that are funded by a state or by a city. This are more orchestras per citizen than anywhere in the word.
    That is making me more proud than any cup the national football team could ever win.

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2013
    Same in Norway. Symphony orchestras are alive and well and branching out like never before. I don't know where people get the "death of orchestra" syndrome from. OK, so places like Greece has to close things down based on their faltering economy, but that's a different thing altogether.

    I adore symphonic music just as much as I like electronic music and other kinds of music.

    Long live diversity!
    I am extremely serious.
  18. sdtom wrote
    This has been one of the more fascinating discussions Main Titles has had for quite sometime and I for one approve. It just happens to coincide with a topic on www.unsungcomposers.com which is talking about the demise of the classical orchestra in the United States and to a lesser extent Europe. This week the Minnesota Orchestra closed their doors for good. It seems that bloated salaries and ticket prices are the cause. The conclusion that we came to as a forum was classical music sold itself as an artistic experience rather than selling a particular composition. All of the master composers such as Tchaikovsky spent years studying composition, harmony and counterpoint. They were usually accomplished pianists and conductors, essentially music was their life. The romantic period (roughly 1800-1900) is no longer being pursued by most modern day classical composers and 21st century music has evolved just as much as the modern film score. If I live long enough I'm sure I'll hear synthesizer layers enhancing a new work or a traditional one. Somehow I don't think you can improve upon the Beethoven 'Eroica' symphony but they might try. In the case of Zimmer and Burton whatever they do seems to be successful and Hollywood really doesn't care as long as their films make a lot of money. They obviously don't need classical training but can wing it. But you'll likely not see Zimmer carrying on the tradition of say a new Brahms like symphony. A work of such magnitude would require some serious study.
    As most of you know I'm firmly placed in the Golden Age.

    Tom smile


    Sure, but I don't think he's aiming at topping Brahms or even being on the same level. Actually my interview with him is called "I'm Not an Artist" (he went on saying, "I'm an entertainer"). smile
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    • CommentAuthormarkrayen
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2013
    Pawel, great debate!

    I do believe your line of thought leads you to make some faulted assumptions about composers with academic backgrounds.

    First of all you're severely stereotyping them, although I can understand why you might do that to clarify your points. Furthermore, Bernard Herrmann is a famous example of a composer manipulating the size or instrumentation of orchestral sections, achieving specific textures, sometimes by making radical choices otherwise unheard of. Examples, "Day the earth stood still", "Psycho", and many, many others. When it comes to electronics, Jerry Goldsmith saw synthesizers as an integral part of his orchestra. Not an additional element, or mere coloristic effect. Example, "The mutant" from "Total recall", where the orchestra derives from the synthesized sonorities - not the other way around!

    These are not exeptions to the rule. Rather, it is an integral part of a modern, academically trained composer's palette, to think out of the box. They aren't indoctrinated into a particular system unless by fault of themselves (provided the given context renders it a fault!). It is a standardized school of thought that composers put on a mental straight jacket, simultaneously minimizing their tools and maximizing the pressure of creativity and original thinking. It happens all the time. So I believe you attempt to draw a false dichotomy between the autodidact and the academic.

    That point aside, I am interested in your ideas of what I would call the "producer-composer". The focus on post-production, meaning an emphasis on studio work as opposed to the acoustic situation. Film music has certainly taken that direction as you say. Although this has less to do with the aspect of not having academic backgrounds, and more to do with technological advances and interest in tone production rather than tone manipulation.

    A small digression: the orchestra life in Norway is more challenged than Thor put it, although far from as severe as many other places. One of the problems politicoans tend to forget is that you need an orchestral culture to inspire and attract good music teachers to every corner of a country. A metropolisation of orchestral culture will diminish the quality of the generations to come!
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      CommentAuthorStavroula
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2013
    Thor wrote
    Same in Norway. Symphony orchestras are alive and well and branching out like never before. I don't know where people get the "death of orchestra" syndrome from. OK, so places like Greece has to close things down based on their faltering economy, but that's a different thing altogether.

    I adore symphonic music just as much as I like electronic music and other kinds of music.

    Long live diversity!


    Just to clarify it. Symphony orchestras in Greece are alive and kicking, not closed down. And believe you me we have excellent musicians. It would really be a disastrous event to close them down.
    A very nice and interesting discussion guys! I really enjoy reading what you have to say!
    Whatever you gaze rests on,do not use your vision, but the eyes of your soul...She knows better...
  19. markrayen wrote
    Pawel, great debate!

    I do believe your line of thought leads you to make some faulted assumptions about composers with academic backgrounds.

    First of all you're severely stereotyping them, although I can understand why you might do that to clarify your points. Furthermore, Bernard Herrmann is a famous example of a composer manipulating the size or instrumentation of orchestral sections, achieving specific textures, sometimes by making radical choices otherwise unheard of. Examples, "Day the earth stood still", "Psycho", and many, many others. When it comes to electronics, Jerry Goldsmith saw synthesizers as an integral part of his orchestra. Not an additional element, or mere coloristic effect. Example, "The mutant" from "Total recall", where the orchestra derives from the synthesized sonorities - not the other way around!

    These are not exeptions to the rule. Rather, it is an integral part of a modern, academically trained composer's palette, to think out of the box. They aren't indoctrinated into a particular system unless by fault of themselves (provided the given context renders it a fault!). It is a standardized school of thought that composers put on a mental straight jacket, simultaneously minimizing their tools and maximizing the pressure of creativity and original thinking. It happens all the time. So I believe you attempt to draw a false dichotomy between the autodidact and the academic.

    That point aside, I am interested in your ideas of what I would call the "producer-composer". The focus on post-production, meaning an emphasis on studio work as opposed to the acoustic situation. Film music has certainly taken that direction as you say. Although this has less to do with the aspect of not having academic backgrounds, and more to do with technological advances and interest in tone production rather than tone manipulation.

    A small digression: the orchestra life in Norway is more challenged than Thor put it, although far from as severe as many other places. One of the problems politicoans tend to forget is that you need an orchestral culture to inspire and attract good music teachers to every corner of a country. A metropolisation of orchestral culture will diminish the quality of the generations to come!


    Psycho was a case of Herrmann freaking out about the budget issues and then suddenly realizing (after writing and recording the score) that it was perfect for the story, but it was a composer very interested in generally defined sonorities than in anything else.

    Goldsmith is a great case of a composer going beyond his training to create a coherent sound and I wouldn't say with all my strength that there would be no modern film music without the experiments Jerry Goldsmith has made in, especially, the late 70s, but they also started earlier and that has to be stated completely.

    I don't want to say that manipulating sound is something that only an untrained composer can do, but rather that an untrained composer can't do anything else if he's seriously connected to his very roots and I would say that a very well-versed musically Danny Elfman (who himself also experimented with the orchestral sound, though I still haven't heard some of these works) did that as well, while preferring an interestingly rather classically orchestral approach to his work with some of the mid-1990s being the period of search of something generally new (Mission: Impossible comes to mind, etc.).

    The issue with tone production rather than tone manipulation is an interesting one. As much as classically "read" (in the meaning of him being a huge fan of classical music and as far as I know taking pride in his knowledge of it) Hans Zimmer is, referring directly to, say, Mozart's core or even Mahler's core (even taking Hannibal into account) is not exactly what he is aiming at. His first demos are inspired by the script and he writes them not exactly to find the overarching melodies for the project, though that is also the case - how should I develop the themes? - it's more about finding the soundscape that fits the story.

    Does formal education help or not in this case? It's not about helping or not helping, Clint Mansell can create an unique soundscape as well as Jerry Goldsmith could try in the 1970s/1980s (except Total Recall and Basic Instinct I do not think that Goldsmith, while still a great composer, tried unique approaches in the 1990s, whether that started with Legend or with Total Recall, I do not know). It's more the way you think of sound as what it is. Nobody expects John Williams to write an ambient score as much as nobody expects Hans Zimmer to write the next War Horse and it's perfectly OK. The fact that Williams doesn't score more is painful. It is painful to see James Horner scoring so little, though rather than his musicianship, it may be a case of his personality and he has a history of pulling off a Bernstein (who, to those that do not know, got rejected by Demi Moore from Scarlet Letter and wrote a thank you letter to her stating that he's grateful he could reuse it in a much better film) or discussing stuff in interviews in a not exactly nice way (basically slandering Terrence Malick and Gabriel Yared in a particularly famous one). The basic principle which everyone talks about is "be nice". The working relationship is as important in Hollywood as the very result is. Anyway, quitting the digression, what you mean, Mark, is a bit hard to divulge into.

    It is because I try to look at film music project-specific. If I were (as I'd wish) a working director, I'd look for as much stylistic diversity as I can, with the only demand I'd have from a composer is to keep with the characters all the time, but generally there is stuff where I'd aim at ambience/modern sound (thrillers, though "please take a look at the 1970s as well"), with banning the Bourne sound whatsoever, dramas would have to be scored on a project basis (there is one idea I'd like to have scored in a fleety Alexandre Desplat way, and another one where I would like to go basically Beyond Rangoon meets Ghost in the Shell), comedies more orchestrally, action depending on the story (Fast and Furious can be RCP, something more intelligent not so much, unless the case would be defended), epics more traditionally, or, to be precise, expanding on the more traditional elements of scores as Kingdom of Heaven or Gladiator, while keeping the more modern ones more at bay (modern rhythmic approach, yes please, but carefully, blasting synths like in Clash of the Titans, no, get out), I'd be a proponent of the swashbuckler sound, even if slightly modernized (I'd hint at Goldsmith's Wind and the Lion and First Knight probably, At World's End, maybe, definitely at HGW's Sinbad) for the pace change of modern cinema, and so on. Would I like something as creative as the original Inception? Sure, I most definitely would love that. But "as creative", not just a rehash.

    I think there is a problem with general thinking in Hollywood and I will happily admit that. Many times have I voiced the anger at the repetition of certain sounds through temp-track influence, mentioning Bourne. The lack of understanding of the original context something was written *for* is astounding, simply. It hurts me to hear how the famous Horn of Doom appears anywhere after Inception, whether it was a novelty effect to serve that particular score and even wasn't what the score was REALLY about, it hurts me to hear the Bourne/Batman ostinato everywhere and so on.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  20. After this more general response, I will think of a more specific statement on the production element of a modern film score, because it's a very important and interesting aspect of what is happening today. And yet again, I do think it wouldn't be the case if not for the groundbreaking composers of the Silver Age, still working in the 1980s, so I would say that the particularly biggest influences would have been John Barry (the famous inclusion of Moog, especially in On Her Majesty's Secret Service, but also in scores like The Lion in Winter), Lalo Schifrin (goes without saying, I hope!) and Jerry Goldsmith. If I'm missing anyone, I'm sorry, I definitely have to touch up my Silver Age, but the backlog is so big that I don't even know where to start.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website