• Categories

Vanilla 1.1.4 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

 
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2013 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    I have to say that I think McQueen goes a bit beyond political debate, because from the beginning when he got the idea of making a movie about slavery, he was reportedly very adamant to tell a story about a free man who gets captured into slavery and it took them years to dig out Northup's memoir, which they decided to, eventually, do.


    confused
    I'm not sure what that means: it seems he was very clear on what he wanted to make from the get-go, so why wait so long until you find something that fits your already preconceived mood and concept?

    So rather than exploring what slavery is like, he tells a story that combines between a fight for dignity and being resorted to a property, often in terms of exploring the extremes of humanity. Frankly, this is my first movie by Steve McQueen that I have seen, I'd like to watch both Shame and Hunger now, because I might find thematic similarities there, maybe (maybe Michael would elaborate on that, I surely hope so).


    In Shame you'll find a similar theme of a man who is utterly incapable of controlling his circumstances (and life), so that might be a comparable style figure. I found it an interesting, but ultimately flawed film.
    Flawed, because it ultimately takes the theme of the film to a conclusion that is utterly contrary to how the actual affliction works. And thus throws credibility to the wind for the sake of effect.
    So here again it seems there's a thematic similarity.
    That bit annoyed me greatly.
    But overall it's a very good film.

    While hanging, rape, whipping is present in the movie...


    Yeah. Well. That's my point.
    That it would be good to approach the subject WITHOUT immediately resorting to those excesses.

    It was compared to Schindler's List, but at the end of the day, actually I would say that McQueen's movie isn't as graphic, except maybe one scene.


    But that's exactly my problem: Schindler's List as a setting was to do with the destruction of the jews. The whole POINT was the utter annihilation of people. To compare the holocaust to slavery makes no sense at all (except maybe on the level of philosophical concepts like morality or suffering).

    My point is that the violence in Schindler's List served a historical purpose (i.e. destruction. Which was the very crux.), while for slavery it's far less poignant and even questionable! (WHY would an owner destroy a valuable piece of property?)

    Again -it cannot be emphasised enough- the suffering of slaves is a huge and terrible one. The degradation of your very humanity is a burden on the soul that -thank God- I cannot even imagine.
    But I have a problem with the pretty much exclusive translation of that suffering into one of physical violence on screen.

    It's more of an atmosphere that something might be happening any time to you that is more harrowing than the depiction of graphic violence itself (whipping, beating happens on screen, but rarely the immediate effects on the body, except that scene, or rather take, etc.).


    Again, it makes no sense.
    Whipping, mutilating, maiming simply made no economic sense.
    It happened! Of COURSE it happened!
    Simply not as exclusively and thoroughly as Hollywood would have us believe.
    The plight of the slave was NOT not knowing whether he'd suffer pain at any given day, but the utter lack of hope, of being stripped off his destiny and personal choices, of his name and his humanity. Of having his very freedom unquestionably being regarded as wrong.

    An interesting question would be, and you seem to be knowledgeable here, if there were actually white slaves during that period.


    Yes, there were.
    But it's really utterly incomparable. Race had EVERYTHING to do with how you were treated, and the 'white slaves' were more of 'indentured servants' (which is bad enough), but as bad as they had it (which was pretty much on par with other "proper" slaves) at least they felt they still had their skin colour to be 'proud of', as that still clearly made them "better".
    This, incidentally, is how much of the truly virulent racism in the US got started: not from the slave owners (why would they care very much?), but from cheap white labour forces who were competing with an (overall) well fed, strong "free" (as in 'already paid for') slave work force.

    The end of slavery made it even worse, when the newly freed slaves -usually in much better condition than the poor whites- now started competing for money!
    It's a deeply disturbing and bitterly ironic historic paradox that freeing the slaves at the time (generally) made their practical situation worse.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  1. That's a great story to tell! Could you list here or in PM some sources where I could explore this more? It's very much afscinating, as much as I am fascinated by the frame of mind that leads to people being treated as property.

    I'll also read on indentured servants.

    With 12 Years a Slave, as I read, they weren't happy with the development, until they found the source material, which basically got all covered.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2013
    PawelStroinski wrote
    That's a great story to tell! Could you list here or in PM some sources where I could explore this more?


    Oophhh...I'd really have to look around for some proper sources, Pawel.
    As you might expect. the topic has been hijacked by extreme bigots and racists and much of what can be found online is blatantly biased to the level of utter make-belief.

    But again, this was more on the level of indentured servants (formally free people working off a debt. But the debt was not such that it was actually repayable.) than slaves.
    Even if in practice the (economic and social) attitude towards these were the same (with generally the same work load, expectations...and punishments), at least the whites could rest "easily", because if nothing else they at least weren't black slaves. dizzy

    It's very much fascinating, as much as I am fascinated by the frame of mind that leads to people being treated as property.

    I'll also read on indentured servants.


    I think the more interesting development is that we DON"T accept this as an 'inevitability' or 'logical consequence' any more. Slavery and indentured servitude are as old as humanity. That we have been leaving it is something relatively new!

    With 12 Years a Slave, as I read, they weren't happy with the development, until they found the source material, which basically got all covered.


    Aaaah! I see.
    Thanks.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  2. When I talked of the great story, I meant mostly how the 13th Amendment led to the birth of racism and KKK.

    In fact... How many movies have there been about the Restoration?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2013 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    When I talked of the great story, I meant mostly how the 13th Amendment led to the birth of racism and KKK.


    Can't really argue with the second (even though I'd say it was the South's defeat in the Civil War and the actual principle of Emancipation that caused the formation of The Ku Klux Klan, not so much the actual passing of the 13rd amendment. Of course it's all interconnected, but it's the bigger picture that led to the Klan's first incarnation, I'd think), but what do you mean with "the birth of racism?

    I don't think that's the case: blacks were ALWAYS (and a long time since) seen as inferior in many ways, even if slavery PER SE was an evil to be abolished.

    In fact... How many movies have there been about the Restoration?


    You mean the Reconstruction?
    Well, most Civil War films and films starring Abraham Lincoln have at least mentioned it.
    Interestingly I think a very good (if overly dramatic) overview was given in the original North & South series.

    Additionally you may want to check out Ken Burns' long but excellent Civil War documentary series.
    American Experience: Reconstruction from 2003 is worth a look as is D.W. Griffith's Birth Of A Nation from 1915.
    The latter is horrifyingly revisionist and racist by today's standards but is exceedingly interesting to see as it was shot a mere 50 years since the Civil War's end, and many of the people working on the film (including the director) had been touched directly one way or another by the actual reconstruction. Riveting for that alone (and dramatically and technically it IS a masterpiece! Even if it's politically and morally deeply flawed.).
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  3. Martijn wrote

    Additionally you may want to check out Ken Burns' long but excellent Civil War documentary series.


    beer cool kiss punk

    Not only do I have this on DVD, I also own the soundtrack CD.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2013
    You 'n' me both, cap'n. beer
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  4. Whatever the slavery controversy, it's nice to see extended, thoughtful reviews in here. Cheers Pawel -- both films sound interesting.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  5. Thanks, I intend to watch both McQueen movies I haven't seen and I would be very open to discussion about them.

    I am just trying to understand the works I see, really. There is something I have to say about how my approach to film music has changed in recent years due to certain experiences, but I don't know if and where there is a good thread to it smile
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  6. Both HUNGER and SHAME are worth seeing. Probably HUNGER is stronger. SHAME arguably hangs around a few scenes too long for a two act film.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    •  
      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2013
    Thanks for that very enlightening discussion guys! I didn't knew and would probably never had if we didn't have such bright people here (applies to other discussions too of course!).
    Kazoo
  7. Europa Report

    Hm. Where to begin? The story is highly reminiscent of 2010 Odyssey II, only there is no David around to send them away in time. The "found-footage" concept is an excuse for not having enough money for many FX shots. The characters are well developed; still it's hard to connect to them given the documentary style of the film.
    This kind of SciFi is very ambitious. But it lacks any scope or grandeur. I can appreciate it but it's not entirely my cup of tea anyway.
    McCreary's score is very effective. The end titles suite is beautiful.

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013 edited
    I liked that film (and it's definitely my cup of tea), but it DID had more potential than what it delivered.
    I am extremely serious.
  8. Now Viewing (well, just viewed): The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (Part 1)

    It's been a bit more than a year since I last watched these, and considering the imminent release of Desolation of Smaug, I figured it was time to dust off the ol' boxset. Extended Edition, naturally (haven't seen the theatricals in ages, and I could die a happy man never seeing them again). I see the films less as a trilogy and more as a sort of epic miniseries, and so that's how I'm watching them, spread out over six nights, so I got as far as the Council of Elrond today. I'll finish it off with another viewing of An Unexpected Journey, which will be my first revisit of that film.

    What's there to say about it that hasn't been said a million times over? It's my all-time favorite film, adapted from my all-time favorite novel, featuring my all-time favorite score (referring to the entire thing, by the way, not just Fellowship). Is it flawless? No, nothing is, but at this stage I wouldn't change a damn thing about it. It's a masterpiece as far as I'm concerned. The casting, the scenery, the sets, the tiny little details hidden in the background of every single frame, the score (the SCORE!!!!! shocked )...Everything about it is so immersive, so captivating. You feel like you're there. I've always been an absolute sucker for escapism and this is as fine as it gets. cool
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013
    Can't stand the extended edition of Fellowship. I prefer the tighter edit of the theatrical version. In saying that, I prefer the extended edition of Two Towers over the theatrical version. Go figure. I have yet to view the extended version of King. How many false endings are in that cut? :p

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013
    I love the extended versions of all films. When it comes to these films, I love to spend as much as time as possible in this glorious universe. In general, my feeling for extended film versions is considerably different than my feelings for extended album versions! smile
    I am extremely serious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013 edited
    Elysium

    A good 'little' sci-fi film with some excellent action scenes, great visual effects and a great visual style from the director of District 9 (it might as well be a sequel set in the future), though unfortunately hampered by a misguided script. It clearly attempts to make a political commentary on social classes, the rich vs the poor, healthcare, immigration and what a future world might hold for the fate of humanity, but fails by oversimplifying matters. Rich people? Bad. Poor people? Good.

    Jodie Foster's and William Fichtner's characters are there purely for the audience to hiss and sneer at with no ambivalence whatsoever. These kinds of bad guys work great in sci-fi films aimed at being fun, say, The Fifth Element, but if you're going to make a film which makes serious attempts at grappling with political and social issues, then a little subtlety and nuance -at least in the characters' motivations- goes a long way!

    I did like Sharlto Copley's performance though. He wasn't driven by any political motives, he was just a batshit crazy asshole hired to get in Matt Damon's way. It felt very akin to the 80s badguy where the main protagonist has to battle in order to save the day. That part, at least, was the most entertaining aspect of the film. I think if it dropped the social and political aspects, and focused more on Damon's character's fight for his life, this could have worked much better.

    The score was... functional. Nothing stood out, it's all been done before. Profound meh. (It also has that ridiculous HORN OF DOOM. God I hate this trend.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013
    District 9 Director's films are always politically-charged. But in his first big feature, he seemed to be able to hold balance a bit better.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013
    Shamefully, I haven't seen District 9 all the way through (not because I was bored by it, but because I physically couldn't stomach the shakey cam in the cinema!) I really need to amend that soon....
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013
    In a smaller screen it's far far more enjoyable. Great score too. I hate shakey cams too btw.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013
    Demetris wrote
    In a smaller screen it's far far more enjoyable.


    I agree. You're doing yourself a disservice not giving this gem another try.
    A far more clever movie than the humdrum Elysium, of which I think I may have been even more critical than you.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013
    DISTRICT 9 was brilliant. ELYSIUM I thought was ok-ish, but far more run-of-the-mill.
    I am extremely serious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013 edited
    Martijn wrote
    Demetris wrote
    In a smaller screen it's far far more enjoyable.


    I agree. You're doing yourself a disservice not giving this gem another try.
    A far more clever movie than the humdrum Elysium, of which I think I may have been even more critical than you.


    I know, I know. shame

    Although the script fell flat and it failed to achieve its aims, I was entertained enough by the action, the visual effects, and both Damon's and Copley's performances. But it's something I will likely forget I've even seen by this time next year.
  9. Thor wrote
    I love the extended versions of all films. When it comes to these films, I love to spend as much as time as possible in this glorious universe. In general, my feeling for extended film versions is considerably different than my feelings for extended album versions! smile

    That makes no sense to me, but whatever. At least we agree on something wink dizzy
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013
    Martijn wrote
    Demetris wrote
    In a smaller screen it's far far more enjoyable.


    I agree. You're doing yourself a disservice not giving this gem another try.
    A far more clever movie than the humdrum Elysium, of which I think I may have been even more critical than you.


    Well what did you expect? Elysium is basically Tom Cruise. For 2 hours.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  10. Demetris wrote
    Martijn wrote
    Demetris wrote
    In a smaller screen it's far far more enjoyable.


    I agree. You're doing yourself a disservice not giving this gem another try.
    A far more clever movie than the humdrum Elysium, of which I think I may have been even more critical than you.


    Well what did you expect? Elysium is basically Tom Cruise. For 2 hours.

    That's Oblivion. biggrin
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2013
    Ooops get Tom Cruise out of my mind! Well yeah, almost similar: Matt Damon for two hours! So many similar sci-fi movies out this year btw.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2013
    Matt Damon for two hours is no bad thing!
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2013
    Matt Daaaaaaaamon.
    I am extremely serious.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2013
    I really could do with seeing a lot less of acting midget Tom Cruise's intense acting face.


    A little less of Matt Damon's TEETH wouldn't go amiss either.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt