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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016 edited
    Steven wrote
    As Evelyn Beatrice Hall one said, 'I disapprove of what you say'.


    ...but I'll defend untill I die your right to say it", to paraphrase an even more famous quote.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    Yes, it's the same one.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    The Great Wall Ramin Djawadi

    Four tracks in, and this is promising. Very promising.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    NP: NUIT BLANCHE (Nicolas Errèra)

    Great, EDM-inspired score from 2011 with some softer textures as well. That Nicolas can do this one moment, and then outrovert orchestral music like SHAOLIN the next or the wonderfully ethereal MOUNTAIN CRY after that, proves to me that he's one of the most talented composers around.
    I am extremely serious.
  1. Thor wrote
    Thanks for the tip. Have you heard 30 COULEUR from 2012? A very fine Badelt score that doesn't get the attention it deserves.


    Yes, I've made a point to collect every new Badelt score, but it's been very lean pickings the last five years. La Pere Noel from 2014 has some really nice material too. Nothing I would trumpet to anyone without a specific attachment to Badelt like I would for Ballerina, but a lot better than some of the bizzarely laid back things he has written while in Europe all these years.
  2. Thor wrote
    It's the first time in a long time that I sat in the audience and actually shook my head in disbelief at what I was hearing; the utter garbage I was being served as music. I'm convinced the score was at least 50% responsible for me giving the film a mere 'OK' judgement as opposed to 'good'. Fuck Giacchino!

    I don't suppose you're ever going to substantiate your inexplicable Giacchino hate (beyond "his music is grating" and variations thereupon)? slant
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    Thor wrote
    It's the first time in a long time that I sat in the audience and actually shook my head in disbelief at what I was hearing; the utter garbage I was being served as music. I'm convinced the score was at least 50% responsible for me giving the film a mere 'OK' judgement as opposed to 'good'. Fuck Giacchino!


    lol
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    Steven wrote
    The Great Wall Ramin Djawadi

    Four tracks in, and this is promising. Very promising.


    Indeed!
  3. Erik Woods wrote
    NP: Rogue One - Michael Giacchino with a splash of John Williams
    It's dynamite!


    I agree.

    Thor wrote
    It's absolute and utter rubbish!

    I agree.

    No, seriously, I agree with both of you. There is a part of me that loves what Giacchino has done here and is blown away, and a part of me that is actively offended, frustrated and almost enraged.
  4. ...how d'you figure? confused
  5. It's difficult to put into words as well as dangerous to form any concrete opinions so early (just as it was after a first listen of The Force Awakens), but I would say basically it's an extremely strong Giacchino Star Wars score. He does exactly what one would expect him to do, and does it with a lot more flare and passion than he put into Jurassic World last year. Thank God there are no forced full original theme quotes grafted onto this like there was with the earlier score.

    On the other hand, I don't know that this movie needs a Giacchino Star Wars score. Why is he on such a short leash (other than the rush caused by the switch)? Why is it so much worse than Jupiter Ascending? One cannot reasonably claim that the subject matter is any less epic, if anything, Rogue One should be far more choral, long-form thematic and heart-wrenching. An entire galaxy is at stake, not just one little primitive backwater planet in the grand scheme of things.

    I would have preferred either A) just a Giacchino score, with no pressure on him to sound like Williams or do anything other than be exactly his original, complete self;

    or B) the film to have gone in a completely different direction, putting their money where their mouth is and actually made a film in which every element, including the score, was free to be whatever the film wanted it to be, rather than what Disney thinks it needs to be. They are trying to say Star Wars is more than just the saga films, while refusing to let this musically differentiate itself from the saga films. I have not seen the film (for another seven hours yet) but from everything that's been shown, the original Edwards / Desplat collaboration in similar mindset to Godzilla would have worked much better, and so would a more modern Zimmer-influenced score, since that seems to be exactly the sort of film they are advertising in the trailers.

    It's almost like it's giving me schizophrenia because the thing itself has schizophrenia. Does it want to be something new and fresh, or does it want to ape every other Star Wars film (again?) Aaaaaaaand I'm probably not making any sense at all. biggrin
  6. Morgan Joylighter wrote
    and so would a more modern Zimmer-influenced score

    No. Star Wars may be many things over the years to come but may the Force prevent that from ever happening.

    As to your other points, keep in mind that he did have a lot less time and likely a lot less freedom to work on this one than he did on Jupiter Ascending. That film was edited to Giacchino's score in part, whereas in Rogue One's case there have been rumors abounding of late reshoots, reedits etc. that simply cannot be kind to a long-form thematic orchestral score.
  7. Edmund Meinerts wrote
    Morgan Joylighter wrote
    and so would a more modern Zimmer-influenced score

    No. Star Wars may be many things over the years to come but may the Force prevent that from ever happening.


    I completely disagree but I understand your point of view.

    As to your other points, keep in mind that he did have a lot less time and likely a lot less freedom to work on this one than he did on Jupiter Ascending. That film was edited to Giacchino's score in part, whereas in Rogue One's case there have been rumors abounding of late reshoots, reedits etc. that simply cannot be kind to a long-form thematic orchestral score.


    I do realize that and do not mean to suggest that any shortcomings are Giacchino's fault. Accounts are that he had even less time than Horner had on Troy. From that point of view he knocked it out of the park. But the mere fact that the production of a movie expected to make over a billion dollars was careless enough to not square away its composer situation over a year ahead of time and make sure its composer was starting to write themes before filming even started, as happened on Jupiter Ascending...that fact is maddening.
  8. Yeah, I can't disagree on that. Feels like there was a lot of studio interference to make the movie as safe as possible (at the cost of making something interesting), and the score got caught in the crossfire. Not that I'm saying it's bad (hell, I haven't even heard it tongue ) or that Desplat's would have been better (I imagine it would have been more interesting on a technical and "this is something new" level, but likely less entertaining to listen to). But it is a shame that these are the circumstances under which Giacchino had to write his Star Wars score, the thing he's likely been dreaming about since his career got underway.
  9. Steven wrote
    The Great Wall Ramin Djawadi

    Four tracks in, and this is promising. Very promising.


    shocked shocked shocked shocked

    Who is this and what has he done with Ramin Djawadi?
    • CommentAuthorJosh B
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    Rogue One - Michael Giacchino

    The thematic material is a little weak (aside from Williams' themes) but once the score gets past its opening (lots of kinda dull suspense), there's some real highlights here. "Confrontation on Eadu" is especially strong and I love the last minute of "Cargo Shuttle SW-0608", which is as close to Williams as Giacchino gets in this score. Given the circumstances of its writing, it's a lot better than I thought it would be.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    I can't agree with you concerning the themes. I feel the two new main themes, Jyn's and the new Imperial March, are very strong!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    Thor wrote
    It's the first time in a long time that I sat in the audience and actually shook my head in disbelief at what I was hearing; the utter garbage I was being served as music. I'm convinced the score was at least 50% responsible for me giving the film a mere 'OK' judgement as opposed to 'good'. Fuck Giacchino!

    I don't suppose you're ever going to substantiate your inexplicable Giacchino hate (beyond "his music is grating" and variations thereupon)? slant


    Sure, since you ask so politely.

    Here's what I wrote in another forum on the ROGUE ONE music:

    "The score was THE major annoyance. I found it borderline dreadful, to be honest. The theme for Jyn (I think) sounds like a watered-down version of "Across the Stars", which wouldn't be too bad in and of itself. But imagine that theme boiled down to just 4 chords without any melody line on top of it. In fact, that's my main criticism of the score and Giacchino in general -- it's just chords, chords, chords; hardly any lines or thematic definition. And then -- of course -- endless ostinati. Now and then, he sprinkles the orchestration with some Williams-y elements (a brass flurry, a boom-tss etc.), but they feel rather awkward. And then there's his "twist" on the STAR WARS themes, or rather, his 'chordification' of them, much like he's done on the STAR TREK movies (mimicking Goldsmith's chord leaps, in particular). There are a few snippets of Williams' themes (the rebel theme, the Force theme, the Imperial March etc.), but -- with a few exceptions -- they come and go without much fuss. And like with JURASSIC WORLD, it makes it painfully clear how inferior Giacchino is to Williams."

    To elaborate further, I think there are two elements that made me outright pissed off in this case, even more than I usually am for Giacchino.

    One is that he's taking over (and ruining/raping) the musical franchises that I love. First it was JURASSIC WORLD, now this. That's a major, extra annoyance beyond the poor music.

    The second is his "Emperor's New Clothes" routine, where he's sneakily able to wrap his empty music in 'fancy' orchestrations which makes the fans drool and swoon over him. It's big, it's boisterious, it has cymbal crashes and loads of brass, so they go "YEAH, MAN! THIS IS GREAT!!". But it is -- in actuality -- extremely empty/naked with very little to latch on to. It's like it's constantly building towards something that never comes. So this second annoyance has to do with the fact that everyone else is going to love it. They're buying into the damn thing, just like the people do for the naked emperor.
    I am extremely serious.
    • CommentAuthorJosh B
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    Erik Woods wrote
    I can't agree with you concerning the themes. I feel the two new main themes, Jyn's and the new Imperial March, are very strong!

    -Erik-


    Jyn's theme reminds me too much of the Yorktown theme. I actually find it a little distracting. I'm hoping that further listens of the score will sell me further on the rest of the thematic material he came up with. It's really quite an accomplishment given how much time he had to write it. Deadlines can work, I guess, haha.
  10. Thanks, Thor. I do appreciate the extra details and the rationale, even if I'm not likely to agree with it (especially the "emperor's new clothes" thing, where frankly I have no clue what you're talking about).

    I also have to say that while I agree Giacchino's theme-writing skills can be a bit lacking at times, I also don't think it's nearly as dire as you paint it. In fact I do think there is merit to some of the criticisms you make - but for me, I simply can't see how that adds up to a verdict of "dreadful". So he's a bit over-reliant on chords over melodies. Okay, but does that make the music bad? Nah. Just a bit less than it should have been, maybe.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016 edited
    It was a reference to this story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emper … ew_Clothes
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    Thanks, Thor. I do appreciate the extra details and the rationale, even if I'm not likely to agree with it (especially the "emperor's new clothes" thing, where frankly I have no clue what you're talking about).

    I also have to say that while I agree Giacchino's theme-writing skills can be a bit lacking at times, I also don't think it's nearly as dire as you paint it. In fact I do think there is merit to some of the criticisms you make - but for me, I simply can't see how that adds up to a verdict of "dreadful". So he's a bit over-reliant on chords over melodies. Okay, but does that make the music bad? Nah. Just a bit less than it should have been, maybe.


    Well, if it's any comfort, I do -- kinda -- like JOHN CARTER. It is the only Giacchino I still own.
    I am extremely serious.
  11. I know the story; I just call bullshit on your usage of it. I guess I fail to see how the music is "naked" or "empty". The only facet of Giacchino's writing I'd attach those words to is his tired sparse one-piano-chord-every-ten-seconds Lost-style "emotional" writing. There's none of that in Rogue One, is there?
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016 edited
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    I know the story; I just call bullshit on your usage of it. I guess I fail to see how the music is "naked" or "empty".


    Naked in the sense that, for me at least, there is nothing or very little going on there. Not any striking themes. No particularly interesting textures. Very little in terms of dynamic range. But he's "surrounding" the music with lots of fan-pleasing gimmicks (brass outbursts, percussive aggression, lots of big chords etc.). For me, that is kinda like hiding a deficiency.
    I am extremely serious.
    • CommentAuthorJosh B
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    I know the story; I just call bullshit on your usage of it. I guess I fail to see how the music is "naked" or "empty". The only facet of Giacchino's writing I'd attach those words to is his tired sparse one-piano-chord-every-ten-seconds Lost-style "emotional" writing. There's none of that in Rogue One, is there?


    There's some but it's fairly limited. Most of his emotional writing in this score is actually fairly bombastic for him.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    NP: JANE EYRE (Dario Marianelli)

    Aaaah.....that's more like it.
    I am extremely serious.
  12. Thor wrote
    Naked in the sense that, for me at least, there is nothing or very little going on there. Not any striking themes.

    Yes, I'll admit that Giacchino has a bit of a deficiency as a melody writer. Could be better. Could also be a hell of a lot worse, though, and simply the fact that he does write in a big theme-focused manner goes a long way even if the themes themselves aren't classics. And he can write some really catchy rhythmic ostinatos and action "hooks". The ape theme from Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, for instance, or "Knife to a Gun Fight" from the fourth Mission: Impossible score, or the latter half of "Hunting for Jules" from the third, or the sounds-a-bit-like-"Grand-Central"-from-Patrick-Doyle's-Carlito's-Way ostinato at the start of "Sab Than Pursues the Princess" from John Carter. Those aren't striking themes in the classic sense, maybe, but it's often the rhythmic drive of those ideas that I take away most from a Giacchino score.

    Thor wrote
    No particularly interesting textures.

    I disagree. Giacchino's got terrific, colorful orchestrations! There's more woodwind activity in his action cues than pretty much anyone else working today. And did you not listen to Doctor Strange, what with the sitars and electronics and harpsichord and all?

    Thor wrote
    Very little in terms of dynamic range.

    That's rich coming from a fan of Junkie XL. rolleyes

    Thor wrote
    But he's "surrounding" the music with lots of fan-pleasing gimmicks (brass outbursts, percussive aggression, lots of big chords etc.). For me, that is kinda like hiding a deficiency.

    So, what, you think he should ditch all that and write stripped-down minimal music just so that the world can finally see him for the low-rent talentless hack he is? Get out of town. You honestly expected him to write a Star Wars score of all things without any of those features? Get out of the galaxy.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016 edited
    I disagree. Giacchino's got terrific, colorful orchestrations!


    That's the "emperor's new clothes" thing again, IMO. Colourful orchestrations do not interesting textures make. I did listen to DOCTOR STRANGE, and the theme was kinda fun for what it was, but it really just sat there. He didn't do much with the 'psychedelia' sound he had conjured up.

    That's rich coming from a fan of Junkie XL.


    JXL has more dynamic range in his little finger than MG.

    So, what, you think he should ditch all that and write stripped-down minimal music just so that the world can finally see him for the low-rent talentless hack he is? Get out of town. You honestly expected him to write a Star Wars score of all things without any of those features? Get out of the galaxy.


    No, I just expect interesting music. ROGUE ONE was neither particularly original, nor did it do the Williams thing very good (I'd take a million Joel McNeelys over this, or -- in fact -- just half of one).
    I am extremely serious.
  13. Thor wrote
    Colourful orchestrations do not interesting textures make.

    How exactly not? What's the difference between a texture and an orchestration choice?

    Thor wrote
    JXL has more dynamic range in his little finger than MG.

    Er, you're going to have to show me how, exactly. At least Giacchino is more than just LOUD LOUD LOUD in his action cues. Bombast, yes, but it changes over time and goes places.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016
    Passengers Thomas Newman

    You don't get more Thomas Newman than this.