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    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2016
    Two of the most iconic car chases of all time, Bullit and The French Connection are both unscored
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  1. Yeah, exactly.

    I once got into an argument about Bullitt. A guy claimed that the scene was scored due to a track title (Shifting Gears, if I remember correctly), but what is scored is the "prelude" to the chase.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  2. And let's not forget the Endor speeder bike chase! cheesy

    Nah, seriously, sometimes having no music over a sequence like that can be super effective - but the whole Dogme thing of no scores whatsoever because "realism", yeah, no thanks.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2016 edited
    Thor wrote
    Eisenberg showed his limitations as an actor in this, I think. He fits well in indie cinema, where he gets to be gloomy or quirky or apathetic, but he's not a very good villain.


    Exactly, where he plays himself , in indies. All the same character, but does that very well. Other kinds of acting? not so much i think. Limited canvas.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2016 edited
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    And let's not forget the Endor speeder bike chase! cheesy

    Nah, seriously, sometimes having no music over a sequence like that can be super effective - but the whole Dogme thing of no scores whatsoever because "realism", yeah, no thanks.


    Great, contemporary European directors like Michael Haneke, Ulrich Seidl or Celine Sciamma rarely -- if ever -- use non-diegetic music, and their movies are some of the most effective, heart-wrenching movies I've seen in the last years. I'm thankful such an approach exist, despite being a film music fan.
    I am extremely serious.
  3. Edmund Meinerts wrote
    And let's not forget the Endor speeder bike chase! cheesy


    Yeah music would've drowned out those amazing sound effects that Ben Burtt came up with for the speeder bikes flying through the forest. Great idea of everyone involved to not use Williams there. smile
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2016 edited
    Movie seems shitty though as first reviews come out.

    Also some talk about the score in the movie: " Heavy, overbearing score thunders above it all, reinforcing the po-faced absurdity. The film reaches for an operatic thunder and ends up with a wet, limp raspberry."

    'Eisenberg is next-level terrible as Luthor. '

    http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/22/ … s-doomsday
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2016
    I completeky agree on the writer's assertion of Snyder's vision of Superman. He does hate him.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  4. Since I watched all the extra's on my Superman box-set one word came back again and again, when Richard Donner was talking about how to handle the character in both Superman: The Movie and Superman II, which he only directed for about 60 % until Lester took over and changed directions with the franchise.

    That word is: Verisimilitude. Look it up in google.

    Donner's vision is the only right one.
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
  5. Tell that a 12 year old.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  6. Sad but true. sad
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2016
    It's Supes v Bats. I am compelled by forces outside my control to see it regardless of reviews.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2016
    I'm sure I will see it at one point.
    Not in the cinema though.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2016 edited
    Demetris wrote
    Movie seems shitty though as first reviews come out.

    Also some talk about the score in the movie: " Heavy, overbearing score thunders above it all, reinforcing the po-faced absurdity. The film reaches for an operatic thunder and ends up with a wet, limp raspberry."


    I disagree with both of those assertions. Both film and score have weaknesses, but both also have great strenghts. I say it again -- it's an uneven affair with the good being really good and the bad being quite bad.

    Wish it were easy to always boil it down to a black'n'white 'good' vs. 'bad', but sometimes things are just in the middle.
    I am extremely serious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2016
    Thor, I think beer has recently damaged a necessary part of your logical neurons.
    Kazoo
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2016
    Bregt wrote
    Thor, I think beer has recently damaged a necessary part of your logical neurons.


    Thankfully, musical enjoyment isn't logical -- just pure gut/emotions!
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2016 edited
    I've had another listen to the score, and these are REALLY good tracks:

    "Beautiful Lie"
    "The Red Capes are Coming"
    "Day of the Dead"
    "Is She With You?"
    "This is My World"

    Bits of "Men are Still Good (Batman Suite)" (mainly the first half of the 14-minute long track)

    The rest isn't bad, but it isn't good either. It's just generic.

    I don't understand how people are hating so much on this when the above tracks are clearly there; tracks that don't hold anything back compared to other, similar tracks in previous works that are generally appreciated. I think it's the "LADYHAWKE phenomenon" at play, wherein people throw themselves on the hate bandwagon without really assessing the score rationally and fairly.

    In fact, if the above tracks could be arranged in a reasonably flowing order, you'd have a smokin' good album right there, some 30-odd minutes!
    I am extremely serious.
  7. yeah
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2016 edited
    The difference with Ladyhawke is that that is generally -and quite correctly- asserted as a score that is a complete and utter mismatch with the film it accompanied. It was just a terrible, terrible fit, and that is where all the hate -quite rghtly- comes from. The score in and of itself isn't really all that bad. (Not really my cup of tea, but I certainly don't hate it).

    No one wants to hate Batman versus Superman, because these are two of the most iconic characters in pop history. But Junkie has proven to be incapable of anything other than the most noisy electronic drumfests without any rhyme, reason or -worse- defining character, while Hans has lost much of his emotional touch and just seems to calculate number of beats, sinus waves of distortion and level of sound (I fear he is treading much in Williams' footsteps, thinking he is creating 'works of art', abstractions that transcend their medium...but failing to recognise that as an emotional connection it just doesn't work.). Their work is swappable, interchangeable. It defines nothing. It supports anything (and thus nothing).

    So in Bats vs. Supes not only does the material completely miss the value of the characters or their supportive needs (and is thus an utter mismatch)...it's noy even enjoyable as an album due to they massive abstraction from what emotive music is supposed to be and do.

    These considerations even leave out the fact that the movie simply isn't very good and that the consensus about the noise-heave slugfests is not a positive one, and the fact that the current producer/director-demanded style of soundscaping for soundtracks exceedingly poorly translates to action movies and classic heroes.

    So for a massively hyped, incredibly eagerly awaited take on two of western pop culture's most recognisable and defined icons they provide a fail on historic, supportive, aesthetic and creative level.
    I'd say the "hate" is not only justified, I'm actually amazed that there are people who do not understand it!
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2016
    yeah
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  8. Thor wrote
    The rest isn't bad, but it isn't good either. It's just generic.

    While I agree that the tracks you cite aren't bad, I'd argue that they are the "generic" ones. The rest of the score is, in places, quite outright bad if you ask me, especially something like "Must There Be a Superman?" and most of the bonus cues on the "deluxe" edition. I find parts of the score to be truly downright unlistenable, which is something I wouldn't even say about Man of Steel (a score which I've noticed is enjoying something of a re-evaluation in the light of this even-worse sequel).
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2016 edited
    Martijn wrote
    The difference with Ladyhawke is that that is generally -and quite correctly- asserted as a score that is a complete and utter mismatch with the film it accompanied. It was just a terrible, terrible fit, and that is where all the hate -quite rghtly- comes from.


    That's not true at all. In fact, that assertion is mostly a result of ignorance (I'm not talking about you in particular, but in its general reception). If you've seen the film, you'll see that the score is perfectly matched throughout. A few pop beats in the tongue-in-cheek action/transportation scenes, which actually adds energy. The rest is straight-out, oldfashioned symphonic medieval in the style of Horner or Williams.

    It's the victim of a kind of 'self-fulfilling prophecy', wherein it's mentioned in 'worst' threads so many times, people take it for granted that it's bad -- even if they have very limited knowledge of the score in the film; or taken the proper time to see how the score works (whether the score is enjoyable on album is another, in this case irrelevant, aspect altogether).

    I see sorta the same thing happening now with BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN -- even if it's obviously a FAR weaker score than LADYHAWKE overall.

    No one wants to hate Batman versus Superman, because these are two of the most iconic characters in pop history. But Junkie has proven to be incapabale of anything than the most noisy electronic drumfests without any rhymne, reason or -worse- defining character


    That's your opinion. I don't share it. I think he's proven both a) that he's able to use his electronica background for interesting textures (often better than 'traditional' composers who try to approximate what it sounds like) and b) traditional soundscapes (like the string writing in MAD MAX) that is surprisingly sophisticated.

    , while Hans has lost much of his emotional touch and just seems to calculate number of beats, sinus waves of distortion and level of sound (I fear he is treading much in Williams' footsteps, thinking he is creating 'works of art', abstractions that transcend their medium...but failing to recognise that as an emotional connection it just doesn't work.).


    Another contention I strongly disagree with, most recently exemplified by the extremely emotional INTERSTELLAR.

    So for a massively hyped, incredibly eagerly awaited take on two of western pop culture's true heroes they provide a fail fail on historic, supportive, aesthetic and creative level.
    I'd say the "hate" is not only justified, I'm actually amazed that people might think otherwise!


    There are other ways to approach the film beyond the connection to the heroes. If you see it as an auteur piece, there are many fantastic Snyder elements in the first 2/3rds of the film. It's only in the last third that it goes generic/Marvel.

    No, I think this -- both film and score -- is a victim of a special psychological/sociological phenomenon, wherein a majority is so vocal in their distaste, people on the "fence" join in. And I can say that even if I have several issues with both film and score. I just don't think the "criticism" I see is rational and fair.

    (by the way, I take it for granted that you've actually SEEN the film?).
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2016
    A long rampage, but some of my 'pet subjects', so hard to avoid.
    I am extremely serious.
  9. Thor wrote
    That's your opinion. I don't share it. I think he's proven both a) that he's able to use his electronica background for interesting textures (often better than 'traditional' composers who try to approximate what it sounds like) and b) traditional soundscapes (like the string writing in MAD MAX) that is surprisingly sophisticated.

    I just don't hear that many "interesting textures" with Junkie. I'm sorry. Cliff Martinez, who as you know I very much don't care for, has far more interesting textures than Junkie.

    Actually, let me rephrase: yes, Junkie is occasionally capable of interesting textures. I liked some of the retro electronics he used in Divergent and Mad Max, even Deadpool. But in all those scores, he then goes on to drown them out in a sea of bad synths emulating orchestral sounds (that harsh synth brass he uses is just so ugly and cheap-sounding) and loud colorless drumming (seriously, compare the percussion writing in your much-hated Gods of Egypt...so many different types of struck instrument, so much color and variety!). And what exacerbates all of that (and squashes even further what textures he has) is his dreadful wall of sound mixing. I drag any of his action cues into Audacity and I see a big blue rectangle. No dynamics, no room for anything to breathe. I know that's not a problem exclusive to Junkie, but he's one of the worst, and it reduces the nuance level in his music from not-much to total zero.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2016
    Oh, really? I give you this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duV7nDkXtr0
    I am extremely serious.
  10. I was just wondering, if I would like to see a film blending the talents of Richard Donner and Tim Burton, of John Williams and Danny Elfman? Good Lord, yes I would. Even so I like Zimmer's music.

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2016
    Thor wrote
    If you've seen the film, you'll see that the score is perfectly matched throughout.


    How can you say that? shocked It's as if the editor has mis-matched every single scene! When it needs drama, you get pop energy, when it needs introspection, you get fanfares. It's really a total shambles (in the film)!
    That's your opinion. I don't share it. I think he's proven both a) that he's able to use his electronica background for interesting textures (often better than 'traditional' composers who try to approximate what it sounds like) and b) traditional soundscapes (like the string writing in MAD MAX) that is surprisingly sophisticated.


    I find the complete opposite, and while I thoroughly despise the argumentum ad populum, I have to admit I do feel myself relieved and reinforced in my opinion that roughly 99% of those interested in film music feel the same way.

    We really seem have no common ground here, so it seems pointless to debate further. smile

    Another contention I strongly disagree with, most recently exemplified by the extremely emotional INTERSTELLAR.


    Fully agree...but that's an exception. Remember everyone -but the Legion Of Zimmerites- actually being surprised at how good it was? That's how low the expectations are these days!

    There are other ways to approach the film beyond the connection to the heroes. If you see it as an auteur piece, there are many fantastic Snyder elements in the first 2/3rds of the film. It's only in the last third that it goes generic/Marvel.


    Sorry, no.
    Just utterly, unequivocably no.
    You don't GET to have an "auteur" piece with icons like these. They are fully established, within a narrative, a universe and a context of their own. Anyone trying to appropriate icons like these will have his gall and hubris massively backfiring at him (as we see happening, in part).
    It just doesn't WORK that way.
    You don't get to be an auteur with Snoopy, James Bond, Star Wars, Superman, Batman and their ilk. The very best you can hope for is to imbue a little extra. Give it a flavour or a twist that is your own.
    But try and appropriate it, and be prepared for the public beating of a lifetime.

    No, I think this -- both film and score -- is a victim of a special psychological/sociological phenomenon, wherein a majority is so vocal in their distaste, people on the "fence" join in. And I can say that even if I have several issues with both film and score. I just don't think the "criticism" I see is rational and fair.


    That sounds suspiciously like an oncoming bout of cognitive dissonance. smile
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2016 edited
    Martijn wrote
    How can you say that? shocked It's as if the editor has mis-matched every single scene! When it needs drama, you get pop energy, when it needs introspection, you get fanfares. It's really a total shambles (in the film)!


    I don't know what film you've watched, but it can't be LADYHAWKE. You're WAY off here, or you've COMPLETELY forgotten everything about it. I urge you to re-watch it, and tell me where this socalled "mis-match" is occuring.

    I find the complete opposite, and while I thoroughly despise the argumentum ad populum, I have to admit I do feel myself relieved and reinforced in my opinion that roughly 99% of those interested in film music feel the same way.

    We really seem have no common ground here, so it seems pointless to debate further. smile


    Yes, we're rather opposite here. A lot of the 'hatred' in certain film music circles comes from people who only discovered JXL through his film scores in the last couple of years. But for those of us who have been following his career at least since the Elvis/"A Little Less Conversation" period, it's been fascinating to follow his evolution -- both in his non-film work and his film work. I think he's been very adept at using his existing specialty skills in a dramatic fashion, as well as tapping into the "zeitgeist" of whatever is relevant in the film score world. AND given us a few surprises in a more traditional, symphonic setting. Simply put, I love what he's doing.

    Fully agree...but that's an exception. Remember everyone -but the Legion Of Zimmerites- actually being surprised at how good it was? That's how low the expectations are these days!


    I don't think it's an exception. I think he's constantly re-inventing himself -- especially if the source material is inspiring (to be fair, I don't think this particular film was, although I like some 30 minutes of the score regardless).

    Sorry, no.
    Just utterly, unequivocably no.
    You don't GET to have an "auteur" piece with icons like these. They are fully established, within a narrative, a universe and a context of their own. Anyone trying to appropriate icons like these will have his gall and hubris massively backfiring at him (as we see happening, in part).
    It just doesn't WORK that way.
    You don't get to be an auteur with Snoopy, James Bond, Star Wars, Superman, Batman and their ilk. The very best you can hope for is to imbue a little extra. Give it a flavour or a twist that is your own.
    But try and appropriate it, and be prepared for the public beating of a lifetime.


    Excuse me, but that's nonsense. The source material has no relevance whatsoever. If you have certain trademarks as a director (as an auteur), you can apply that to ANYTHING -- whatever the source material. Are you saying Baz Luhrman shouldn't have done what he did in ROMEO & JULIET because Shakespeare is such an iconic writer? Only 14th century adaptations need apply?
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2016
    Captain Future wrote
    I was just wondering, if I would like to see a film blending the talents of Richard Donner and Tim Burton, of John Williams and Danny Elfman? Good Lord, yes I would. Even so I like Zimmer's music.

    Volker


    If Williams and Elfman got together to score a Batman film it would sound like THIS!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2016 edited
    Ladyhawke


    Granted, it's a long, very long time since I saw it.
    I'll try again as soon as the opportunity arises.

    Thor wrote
    Excuse me, but that's nonsense. The source material has no relevance whatsoever.


    Of COURSE it does.
    No one sees Luhrman's version (or West Side Story) as THE Romeo and Julia.
    Just as none see David Niven's James Bond as THE James Bond.
    These are more or less successful creative interpretations. They have their place and their worth...but they are in no way THE thing they interpret or represent.

    If Supes vs. Bats was an "auteur" piece it would have had to step clearly outside of the existing canon and expectations and make clear from the start that this is not THE Superman and THE Batman, but an out-of-the-box take on them, a creative re-interpretation, if you will.
    But it isn't.

    It's clearly reported and clearly defined to be within established continuity.

    Hence there is no way it can be an "auteur" piece: Snyder is not the author (and it's arguable if he even has a trademark style; compare Tim Burton's take on Batman that stayed within continuity, yet clearly bore a Burton signature. It still was in no way, shape or form an 'auteur piece').
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn