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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2017
    I'm often get the opinion that releases that come out after the fact are merely sales tools to get the buyer to purchase material. I liken it to writing. When I write which is not very well it often takes me a few tries to get it right and there are sometimes three and four pages of that end up in my trash can on my computer. Is this the case with music? I would really like other peoples feelings on this.
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2017
    I'm not quite sure what you refer to. What do you mean by "releases that come out after the fact"?
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017
    confused Let's use Charade as an example. Thanks for putting up with my stroke brain smile

    http://www.soundtrackcollector.com/title/1398/Charade

    The original lp I have is 29 minutes long and Mancini used selected tracks to make this a popular release with us as collectors include. The Intrada release is 76 minutes of material confused I think it is a sales tool only.
    Tom smile
    listen to more classical music!
  1. Well, this is a very well-worn debate. Personally I like to have as much music as possible available from a source, not because that provides the best listening experience (it doesn't), but because it allows me to decide for myself what the best listening experience will be. (I know some people like Thor will argue that it's impossible for us plebs to do such a thing, to which my response is - forgive me - "bullshit").

    After all, expanding from 29 minutes to 76 is pretty significant. That's almost triple the length! Far from being a "sales tool" only. Maybe I listen to the longer version and decide that 50 minutes of it are worth returning to. In that case I've still gained 20 minutes of material on the original release. That makes it very much worth it for me. And while that's not always the case (there have been expansions that added little to no value for me), you have to keep in mind different tastes. Maybe those 25 minutes I left off will be very dear to some other person. I wouldn't want to deprive that music to that person simply because I, personally, am not interested in hearing it again. But that's the sort of argument you frequently hear from the other side.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017 edited
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    (I know some people like Thor will argue that it's impossible for us plebs to do such a thing, to which my response is - forgive me - "bullshit").


    Not impossible. Anyone can make a playlist, but a playlist does not an album make.

    Thanks for clarifying, Tom. So if I understand you correctly, it's the ol' C&C vs. A&A (Complete & Chronological vs. Abbreviated & Arranged) debate.

    I definitely think these expanded releases are a sales tool, but that's because there's a big market for it (relatively speaking...film scores aren't really a 'big market', of course). So it makes sense from a purely economical standpoint. Doesn't make me like them any more, but I understand the business logic behind it.
    I am extremely serious.
  2. There's nobody on Earth as good as tailoring an album to my tastes as I am. Professional or not.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017
    Would you say the same thing about a screenwriter adapting a book to film?
    I am extremely serious.
  3. No, but I don't see the two things as being at all equivalent. I'm just making a playlist for myself, after all. I don't have to take any other factors into consideration - and it's something I can do from my laptop in just a couple minutes.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017
    That's where we disagree. I see it as very equivalent. To me, the creation/adaptation of a piece of music from one medium to another is an artform onto itself.

    Again, I separate strongly between a 'playlist' (which anyone can do) and a 'proper album' (which only the composer or producer can do).
    I am extremely serious.
  4. The other issue I have with short albums is that they can provide a not entirely honest image of a score. If a score has 30 minutes of fantastic material and 60 minutes of dull crap, a 30-minute album is going to make it look far more amazing than it actually is. And for day-to-day listening purposes that's fine, preferable even. But for something more reviewerly and analytical, not having the bigger picture is problematic.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017
    Edmund if you have the long version how many times do we have to listen to the main theme.
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017
    I know we have talked about this before but in my tiny way I'm trying to make Main Titles more interesting.
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    The other issue I have with short albums is that they can provide a not entirely honest image of a score. If a score has 30 minutes of fantastic material and 60 minutes of dull crap, a 30-minute album is going to make it look far more amazing than it actually is. And for day-to-day listening purposes that's fine, preferable even. But for something more reviewerly and analytical, not having the bigger picture is problematic.


    Believe it nor not, but I agree with this. Which is why I think soundtrack albums should not only be good listening experiences, they should also be representative of the score as a whole (which means covering the basic thematic material and the major setpieces, for example).
    I am extremely serious.
  5. sdtom wrote
    Edmund if you have the long version how many times do we have to listen to the main theme.

    If the long version repeats the main theme over and over again, well, that's a fundamental flaw that a reviewer ought to be able to point out. Again, the shorter album "hides" that problem - great for casual listening, less ideal for analysis.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017
    I agree to the standpoint that we listen carefully to the movie when we watch it. I usually use paper to document wha I hear. Afterwards I'm content with the Mancini album in which he highlighted the material to a nice 30 minute listening experience.
    listen to more classical music!
  6. Makes sense to me. I do like as much music as possible to be available away from the film. I guess if I had my way, every score would have two releases: a well-programmed album and a C&C megaset.
  7. I find it very frustrating if a piece of music that I loved in a movie isn't featured on a 30 album. In the past there would have been nothing I could have done except watch the movie again. Now I probably would have it on an expanded release.

    Another thing that struck me is that a lot of the older 30 minute albums would feature bits from the score that had been recorded up to that point. Those albums would be crafted from an incomplete score, where all the music wouldn't be able to choose from.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017 edited
    Edmund Meinerts wrote
    sdtom wrote
    Edmund if you have the long version how many times do we have to listen to the main theme.

    If the long version repeats the main theme over and over again, well, that's a fundamental flaw that a reviewer ought to be able to point out. Again, the shorter album "hides" that problem - great for casual listening, less ideal for analysis.


    That's not necisarily a flaw as composed for the film per se, since the film could call for a performance of the main theme, then go for 20 minutes without music, and then have a scene that calls for a reprisal of the main theme. It could, however, become a flaw on album when you demand all of it and in chronological order right after each other. You become sick of that theme and listening to the score becomes boring. And in that case you'd judge the score unfairly, if you ask me. It's different mediums, and you cannot handle both in the same way.
  8. I think that the best thing about C&C releases is that you can hear the development of the music - including themes - as the score progresses. You don't necessarily get that with produced albums where it's listening experience rather that theme/music development is what's important.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017
    boy do I ever not agree with all of you. If a composer as an example writes several minutes for a scene that the director wants no music and then this material is included in the expanded release to me it would make no sense at all. Do authors of books include material that could have been in the book but decided to rewrite the material to a shorter form, Why would we want to read this material? A 500 page book could easily become a 2000 page one with chapters being rewritten. A two page review I've written could easily become a 10 page one. If Stanley Donen wants to decide whether he wants to insert Charade in a scene as a dramatic one, big band, frilly, without harp and brass and the list can go on and on. Maybe after all that work by the composer he decides on nothing. I don't have to hear all that I'm sorry. And then in some cases it could take a long time to get them in the right order as they appeared in the film. I had communication once with the author Jeffrey Deaver who did something not often done and that was to write a story backwards. He said he had to rewrite over and over to get it right and commented he would never do it again. Can you imagine having to read the rewrites! smile
    listen to more classical music!
  9. Yeah, but we do not talk about piano sketches or mock-up-tracks made for the purpose of demonstration. In every creative process you will have material that gets altered or even abandoned on the way. But if there is music that was fully developed, recorded and produced and that did not end up in the film for whatever reason, why should it not be listened to?

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2017
    Then I say to you Volker why not make available all the writing material in a book and let the reader decide what is best. Most people won't read it thats why. These limited edition releases reacch one 1 thousand of one percent.
    Tom smile
    listen to more classical music!
  10. Because, Tom, scenes get cut because the timing is wrong or the scene doesn't support the story or it is out of character or it wasn't properly illuminated or whatever, but not because the music is bad. In that case you will track in some other music or you have the composer rework the cue. So why let music rot in the vaults that is perfectly fine? I do see the value of an expertly edited score album. That's why C&C and album releases for me are not a matter of "either ... or" but of "as well as". smile
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  11. sdtom wrote
    Then I say to you Volker why not make available all the writing material in a book and let the reader decide what is best. Most people won't read it thats why. These limited edition releases reacch one 1 thousand of one percent.
    Tom smile

    If it's a book I really love and they come out with a limited edition that includes a bunch of unused or revised material, I would absolutely buy that in a heartbeat.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2017
    Edmund I just couldn't get excited about reading 500 plus pages of rewrites in a book I have some interest in, sorry. Like it or not I'm willing to accept the final product in either book or music form. I don't have to hear four different styles of Charade in the title music and then be able to declare they got it wrong! They should have used alternate 2 with the viola solo instead of a violin, yikes.
    If I were a composer I don't know I would necessarily want people to hear the experimenting around with the different cues.
    listen to more classical music!
  12. And that's fine, nobody is forcing you to buy expansions or taking away the original albums from you. But isn't it good that such things are available to those of us who are interested?
  13. Tom, I don't think that your book analogy is a good one. I don't think that the written example works well compared with the written medium. For me, alternate takes, different ideas, etc in a score is more akin to re-recordings of score - with their inherent alternate interpretations. Worth hearing to some.

    For books, aren't there examples of books being re-published in longer forms from the originally-published version?
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2017
    usually useless and inferior material that if it had been half as good in the first place it'd be on the initial official release. but any stuff that has the 'rare' and 'unreleased' label on it, sells like crazy. i am with Tom.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  14. Again, who are you to decide for everyone what is "useless" and "inferior"? And a lot of the times there are other reasons why a certain piece is not included...it was recorded too late, or there are musicians' union fees in place preventing albums being longer than 30 minutes.
  15. Demetris wrote
    usually useless and inferior material that if it had been half as good in the first place it'd be on the initial official release. but any stuff that has the 'rare' and 'unreleased' label on it, sells like crazy. i am with Tom.

    You know enough about film music and the process to know that your first statement is inaccurate. But I can't argue with your second! wink
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn