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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2009
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2009 edited
    Sunil wrote
    Let me sing Lullaby for you. Sleep well, Timmy!


    Darn cat squalling outside keeping me awake rolleyes slant
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSunil
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2009
    Timmer wrote
    Sunil wrote
    Let me sing Lullaby for you. Sleep well, Timmy!


    Darn cat squalling outside keeping me awake rolleyes slant


    biggrin

    Don't worry, i will send you Dogzilla wink
    Racism, Prejudices and discrimination exists everywhere.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJan 1st 2010
    Erm...okay!

    anything to keep the peace
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSunil
    • CommentTimeJan 1st 2010
    Timmer wrote
    Erm...okay!

    anything to keep the peace


    Watch the movie Flubber, you will get eternal peace. biggrin

    Have a nice day! wave
    Racism, Prejudices and discrimination exists everywhere.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJan 1st 2010
    Not if I watch Flubber I won't.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSunil
    • CommentTimeJan 1st 2010
    That's why i recommended that movie. biggrin bounce bhangra
    Racism, Prejudices and discrimination exists everywhere.
    • CommentAuthorRoy
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    PawelStroinski wrote
    ....What sometimes bothers me with Horner as a film composer is that he tends to state his themes in full from reel one. Zimmer does it better movie-wise at times, especially when he tends to build up to the main theme through giving snippets of it and then blasting it in full....


    I've just read that and can't agree. The first better example would be Avatar where Horner introduced his themes in small steps. Of Course Horner usually doesn't wait to long to present his Themes in full glory but later (and I don't mean later in diffrent Movie wink ) plays with themes, changing moods, notes and so on... The Perfect Storm is prime example of it. Horner builds A long Score on just One main theme andI really don't feel an over-use of it because Horner changes it constantly, He use it to presents so much diffrent emotion so it sounds diffrent all the time.
  1. Perfect Storm has 2 main themes that are repeated ad infinitum. The fact that one of them is later turned into minor key doesn't change the fact. The melody wears off after a big while. Avatar is a score written after Four Feathers and Four Feathers was about the time when Horner started to change his thematic statements. Look at Enemy at the Gates - the last "old" score in that resort. There is no variation on the main theme, if it's stated, it's stated completely in full, maybe the rhythm is changed a bit (Enemy at the Gates is one of my favorite Horner scores, BTW, and definitely one of his best in the movie)
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    • CommentAuthorRoy
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    Enemy at the Gates does have thematic developement 'The Betrayal' is the track in which We can finally hear The Main Theme in it's full glory. Look at Field of Dreams where there is a build up tahat last for over 30 minutes and than we Have this suite of 3 last tracks that really shines. Similar story is in In Country.
  2. Depends on what you mean by full glory, if you mean intensity, then yes, you are right. What I mean is that Horner never shows "creation" of the theme and never quite uses snippets of the theme here and there, if he states the theme, he uses the full melody, until 2002, where he changed that with Four Feathers and Windtalkers (though Windtalkers theme is possibly his most simplistic one, I find that score underrated).
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    • CommentAuthorRoy
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    Well I really can't tell if there is any diffrence on this term beetwen those two. I mean aren't there snippets of themes in diffrent (mostly action tracks) from Titanic, Rocketeer, Mask of Zorro, Deep Impact confused
    • CommentAuthorRoy
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    Oh and btw, glad You enjoy Windtalkers PaweĊ‚. I too think it's Underrated, I mean the first track build very good tension, the action track are very good(especially Sacrifice Never Forgotten And The last track makes a great elegy with a very nice motif introduced just for that very last track.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    Roy wrote
    Well I really can't tell if there is any diffrence on this term beetwen those two. I mean aren't there snippets of themes in diffrent (mostly action tracks) from Titanic, Rocketeer, Mask of Zorro, Deep Impact confused


    Yes, and Star Trek II and Krull if you want to go back to his earliest days. Something he's always done.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    I know what Pawel means, though. He's giving snippets of the main theme in those scores, but they're all fully-developed snippets. It's not something that bothers me though - he develops music in other ways. Few film composers have truly developed themes over the course of a score, leading up to a full statement towards the end. Very few.
    • CommentAuthorRoy
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    ..and does Zimmer is among them ? And I Can't agree that in case of Horner they are all fully developed snippets...
    • CommentAuthorRoy
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    ...Oh and Horner does something more, most people don't appreciate this. He developed his themes during an entire carrer. For example - Main Theme from Mighty Joe Young (which I love btw) is build on motifs used previously in Project X and House of Cards. The other example is Main Theme from Enemy at the Gates build on that motif used in Balto, Apollo 13 and Titanic. I remember Jon Broxton in One of the review said about Horner's Music that it is like One Big symphony and I for One agree with that statement. And that is a reason why I love His Music, although, pity that many hates Him for it.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    Roy wrote
    ..and does Zimmer is among them ?


    No, of course not! He wouldn't know development if it fell on his head.
    • CommentAuthorRoy
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    biggrin
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010 edited
    I'd like to see Zimmer develop his themes like something akin to Horner's Braveheart!
    • CommentAuthorRoy
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    I think Everybody would like to see that, but does Zimmer see himself doing that biggrin
  3. Where are Braveheart themes DEVELOPED? They are always stated as full melodies! That's the thing. He sometimes develops the intensity of the themes, NOT the

    Horner doesn't quite use thematic snippets too. He usually states his themes in full - Titanic has lots of that.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    Perhaps, but Zimmer wouldn't know development if it pulled its pants down, sat on his face and wriggled.

    I like how Horner layers his themes (literally). Particularly with Braveheart, he brings two themes and brings them together culminating in a very powerful final statement.
    • CommentAuthorRoy
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    Well Braveheart has many great themes and motifs, Few are shown in first tracks but not in full statement, thats right of course that there are many full statements of themes but not always, And as for developed, look for example at 'Sons of Scotland' That's a Build up Zimmer could only dream of wink
  4. Roy wrote
    ...Oh and Horner does something more, most people don't appreciate this. He developed his themes during an entire carrer. For example - Main Theme from Mighty Joe Young (which I love btw) is build on motifs used previously in Project X and House of Cards. The other example is Main Theme from Enemy at the Gates build on that motif used in Balto, Apollo 13 and Titanic. I remember Jon Broxton in One of the review said about Horner's Music that it is like One Big symphony and I for One agree with that statement. And that is a reason why I love His Music, although, pity that many hates Him for it.


    I don't hate Horner for his symphonic development, in fact I think that's his strength as a composer, but not as a film composer. Sometimes his complex writing goes against the movie. This is why with all respect to his technical abilities, James Horner would go on day one if I were supposed to direct a movie, because I think Horner doesn't quite understand modern cinema (he started in the 80s, but his approach is similar to the music of 1940s/1950s in terms of musical approach, though change emotions for action in his case).

    Horner loses a lot if he is disallowed his usual symphonic tricks. If he writes for piano only, OK, I think right now he is the best pianist in Hollywood, though many people here will agree that his piano cues tend to meander aimlessly a bit, I am thinking of scores like Extreme Close-Up here, but he's not a good synthesizer artist. He is the last person to run to if you need an electronic score.

    What is modern cinema to me about musically? A lot of course depends on the director here, but I think modern cinema is somewhat more about narrative brevity and the visuals speaking more/less for themselves. That's why, I think, modern cinema is about building contrast rather than going with action. Horner has quite a problem with that for me, he tells exactly the same thing that happens on screen, but emotionally squared (which in many cases means saccharine). Today's film music to me is about emotional restraint and intelligence rather than going across with a point with the subtlety of a cannon.

    Zimmer is partly responsible for the lack of subtlety in most of his projects, but can you expect subtlety from Ron Howard's movies and Jerry Bruckheimer's? Sorry, that would be as possible as Ingmar Bergman directing a James Bond movie. Where is Zimmer subtle? The Thin Red Line, Frost/Nixon. This is modern film music at its best to me.

    Now, back to Horner. Cameron's Avatar is largely an old-school movie, when it comes to narration and even the script (Quaritch is even taken from the likes of Die Hard, it's a typical 80s over-the-top villain). This is why his score works wonders in the movie (and uses the Zimmer/JNH references for the world-creation aspects of the movie). This is where pure subtlety (in the sense of the narrative, not the orchestration or voice leading, I would go as far as saying that in THAT way Horner's complexity lies in the subtleness of those aspects of his composition).
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  5. Roy wrote
    Well Braveheart has many great themes and motifs, Few are shown in first tracks but not in full statement, thats right of course that there are many full statements of themes but not always, And as for developed, look for example at 'Sons of Scotland' That's a Build up Zimmer could only dream of wink


    Tell him to do it, THEN we will see if he can only dream of. I think Zimmer has more up his sleeve than people want to think he does. It's the opportunity he doesn't get.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  6. Steven wrote
    Perhaps, but Zimmer wouldn't know development if it pulled its pants down, sat on his face and wriggled.

    I like how Horner layers his themes (literally). Particularly with Braveheart, he brings two themes and brings them together culminating in a very powerful final statement.


    Well, that is voice leading, polyphony.

    Zimmer develops his motifs actually, he often uses snippets of the melody and then uses it in full. I am surprised nobody actually hears that!
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Steven wrote
    Perhaps, but Zimmer wouldn't know development if it pulled its pants down, sat on his face and wriggled.

    I like how Horner layers his themes (literally). Particularly with Braveheart, he brings two themes and brings them together culminating in a very powerful final statement.


    Well, that is voice leading, polyphony.


    Well, whatever it is, it's not something I've ever heard from Zimmer. (Or if I have, it clearly wasn't as impressive as Horner.)
  7. How about Pirates of the Caribbean 3's final piece? The ending.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2010
    PawelStroinski wrote
    James Horner would go on day one if I were supposed to direct a movie, because I think Horner doesn't quite understand modern cinema


    That's a very weird thing to say given the notches on his bed post, even in the recent past. There are undoubtedly some films he can't score well, because of the way he approaches cinema - he could never pull off something like The Thin Red Line, for instance. But The Thin Red Line isn't really a typical example of modern cinema. If you mean Pirates of the Caribbean, then maybe he wouldn't be so great at that either - he doesn't do lighthearted things very well. Is that what you mean by modern cinema? On the other hand, something like The Dark Knight he could knock out of the park. He understands films like that, knows what they're about, what he needs the music to do.