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    • CommentAuthortjguitar
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
    Erik Woods wrote
    David wrote
    Williams is without a doubt one of my favorite composers and can craft a theme like no other, but his action material has been less than stellar lately.


    Less than steller? Since when? Because I was mightily impressed with the action cues from his last Harry Potter score, the opening battle sequence in Revenge of the Sith, The Chase Through Coruscant, and War of the Worlds contains some fresh and unique action scoring. Where's the problem?

    -Erik-


    Erik, what film is The Chase Through Coruscant from? Did it make the CD release?
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007 edited
    tjguitar wrote
    Erik, what film is The Chase Through Coruscant from? Did it make the CD release?


    Attack of the Clones. Track 3

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    • CommentAuthortjguitar
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007 edited
    Erik Woods wrote
    tjguitar wrote
    Erik, what film is The Chase Through Coruscant from? Did it make the CD release?


    Attack of the Clones. Track 3

    -Erik-


    Thanks I'll have to give that a listen. smile

    I'm guessing the Sith opening BATTLE SEQUENCE didn't make it's CD? At least going off the track titles...unless its part of the first track after the main theme.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007 edited
    tjguitar wrote
    I'm guessing the Sith opening BATTLE SEQUENCE didn't make it's CD? At least going off the track titles...unless its part of the first track after the main theme.


    The entire cue didn't make it to CD but some of it did in track 1 called Revenge of the Sith.

    BTW, the General Grievous action cue is deadly, too. Track 5.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
    Erik Woods wrote
    Ooooh... PHILOSOPHER'S Stone is indeed the 2nd worst. Like you said, great themes but the film was over scored. But I'd still take that over Hooper's unimpressive effort!

    -Erik-


    What is the story behind the title change anyway? I always say Sorcerer just because that's what everything here in the US says, but I know that's not the original, British title. Did Scholastic think we were too stupid to understand philosopher or something?
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
    David wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    Ooooh... PHILOSOPHER'S Stone is indeed the 2nd worst. Like you said, great themes but the film was over scored. But I'd still take that over Hooper's unimpressive effort!

    -Erik-


    What is the story behind the title change anyway? I always say Sorcerer just because that's what everything here in the US says, but I know that's not the original, British title. Did Scholastic think we were too stupid to understand philosopher or something?


    Yes... exactly. And that's not me being sarcastic... that was the actual reason. The producers thought that Americans wouldn't know what a philosopher was.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
    Considering one of the many great benefits to reading is increasing vocabulary, that reasoning is absurd.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007 edited
    David wrote
    Considering one of the many great benefits to reading is increasing vocabulary, that reasoning is absurd.


    I know... and fact that it's true is what makes it even more ridiculous.

    And this is from Wikipedia:

    "Both the book and the motion picture were released in the United States with the revised title Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. The book's U.S. editor, Arthur Levine, who was also responsible for Americanizing words, spellings, and grammar characteristic of British English, felt that Philosopher's Stone conveyed an incorrect idea of the subject matter, and that a title change was necessary. Rowling and Levine had agreed to change words only when they felt that British usages would be unnecessarily confusing to American readers"

    So, anyone studying philosophy in the US is actually training to become a sorcerer.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorAtham
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
    I'm not a big Harry Potter fan. So I really don't care who scores the last two films.
    However, I am a big Indiana Jones fan and I can't wait to hear what he comes up with in 5 months from now! It will be a fun ride I'm sure.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
    Atham wrote
    I'm not a big Harry Potter fan. So I really don't care who scores the last two films.


    I'll go with that too. And replace "not a big" with a simple "not a" wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorCristian
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
    This is my top 3 John Williams:

    1. Seven Years in Tibet
    2. Memoirs of a Geisha
    3. Angela's Ashes

    I like his emotional scores I'm not into his action scores...
  1. What about Schindler's List? And A.I.?

    I still have to listen to Angela's Ashes...
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorCristian
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
    Oh, I forgot about Schindler's List, great score, but I like Seven Years in Tibet and Memoirs of a Geisha more.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
    PawelStroinski wrote
    What about Schindler's List? And A.I.?

    I still have to listen to Angela's Ashes...


    A word for all three: GORGEOUS; honestly
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorplindboe
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
    Christodoulides wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    What about Schindler's List? And A.I.?

    I still have to listen to Angela's Ashes...


    A word for all three: GORGEOUS; honestly


    What he said.

    Peter smile
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007 edited
    @ The Stone:
    I think in this specific case it had more to do with the iconic name of the thing itself which is different in different cultures. In germany, it is the "Stein der Weisen" which means "Wise Men´s Stone". I guess if it was a german book, it would have been changed also out of cultural reasons, because of the "Three Wise Men", which are the "Heilige Drei Könige", "Holy Three Kings", in Germany. So, for once, I back the decision to change the title, but in the end, it might have done a lot of damage to the book due to the fact that sorcerers are still burned in the US if they find one. Or at least they get a cozy little cell in Azkab... ehm... Guantanamo Bay. wink
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007 edited
    @Williams action and scoring Potter:
    I second the statement about Williams´ definite change in his action style and that it doesn´t sound to well to my ears. It is much more complex and complicated, and yes, I prefer Hooper´s action stuff over this cacophonic mess Williams likes to use these days. And, BTW, if you listen to Hooper´s stuff, you might find it not to be too different from the arrangements of "Hyperspace" in Empire; maybe not so rich in orchestrations, but quite similar anyway. And I still would prefer "Hyperspace" over every single action cue in Azkaban, and Azkaban is my favourite Potter score! I agree that "Wise Men´s Stone" :D was scored way too sugary, but I see the first two movies as the introduction to Dis... ehm... Potterland anyway, so it´s okay in my book. And they have their darker moments. The best stuff, however, is to be found in Azkaban, no discussion here. The action though is miserable not only in Potters 1-3, but in 4 as well. But that doesn´t belong here. I accept the action in Part 5 because it fits my taste, but I can see why people find it unchallenging. It´s just that I like it this way.
    •  
      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007
    Action in 4...miserable? BLASPHEMY!!!! biggrin
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
  2. I know I´m alone on this one. But I beg you, compare Doyle´s action tracks in Frankenstein or Dead Again with Goblet of Fire and you´ll know what I mean. Hell, even Eragon´s Big Battle Track is way better than any single track he came up with in Goblet.
    •  
      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007
    I can agree with you on The Golden Egg, I was always underwhelmed by that cue, but what about the gloriously energetic middle section of The Black Lake? That could be in my top 25 action cues of all time!
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
  3. You know what? I´ll put this track in right now and tell you soon. I´ve always tried to listen to this score in one session and was bored to death after a couple or so tracks, so I might have given up earlier...
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007 edited
    The atmosphere in the beginning is a bit unusual for Doyle, but absolutely fitting to the scene. It´s after 1:10 that this track loses me completely. 1:45 starts getting better, but still nothing spectacular. God, if he only would stop those cymbals from continuous bashing... no, no, this is too chaotic. No time to develop anything. He changes speed and sequence every other five seconds or so. And then the fanfare in the end, God, this is Potter, not some king coming home to Camelot.

    Sorry, my opinion stays the same. There is ONE magical moment in the whole score, and it is in Track 18 from 8:55, and lasts not even 20 seconds, and it only works because he played this one great original melody of his twenty times in a row in that one track, so we kind of can´t avoid to remember it when it happens "there", even if this scene has nothing to do with the scene where the theme was introduced earlier. A shame, really. Wasted opportunities, this score.
    •  
      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007
    I just love the melodies that the brass play in the middle of the cue.
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007 edited
    Which melodies? shocked And yes, I got the right track.

    Okay, honestly, I know what you mean, but this stuff is just thrown in without sense and sensibility. The whole track is very chaotic and doesn´t carry the emotions the scene desperately needed.
    •  
      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007
    2:14-2:27, 2:33-2:41, 2:48-3:23, 3:37-3:52 (I left out the fanfare at the end b/c you already said you don't think its appropriate). Plus the rhythmic line throughout most of the track is very similar to what he does in Battle for Varden, if slightly less complex.
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
    •  
      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007 edited
    Haha...here and you made me give you specific times and you didn't really mean it... cool
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2007
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    sense and sensibility


    If that was a reference to Doyle's work, that was quite clever! biggrin
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorMatt C
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2007
    Why has this turned into a Patrick Doyle thread, when this is a John Williams thread we're using?
    http://unsungfilmscores.blogspot.com/ -- My film/TV/game score review blog
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2007 edited
    Because Doyle invaded a Williams franchise. biggrin

    Sorry, Scribe, for editing my post not fast enough. And I had to go because it was getting late and I´m currently fighting with a heavy sneeze...

    I can see what you mean with the battle rhythms, but they are, as you said yourself, less complex. I would say they are just not long enough. That´s my main concern, that he switches between ideas every few seconds, and I like it when themes (even combat themes) are given time to develop and raise to certain heights, which is, BTW, exactly what is missing from Williams´ action stuff these days, to return to the original topic.

    This is why I like, for example, "Hyperspace" from Empire strikes back more than most of the action stuff in the prequels. I love it when the action builds up rather slowly and develops into a full theme, played to its own right and fullness up to the very end where everything explodes. Goldsmith was an expert on it, "The Plan" from Extreme Prejudice or the Final battle in Rambo III being perfect examples.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNautilus
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2007
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Because Doyle invaded a Williams franchise. biggrin

    Sorry, Scribe, for editing my post not fast enough. And I had to go because it was getting late and I´m currently fighting with a heavy sneeze...

    I can see what you mean with the battle rhythms, but they are, as you said yourself, less complex. I would say they are just not long enough. That´s my main concern, that he switches between ideas every few seconds, and I like it when themes (even combat themes) are given time to develop and raise to certain heights, which is, BTW, exactly what is missing from Williams´ action stuff these days, to return to the original topic.

    This is why I like, for example, "Hyperspace" from Empire strikes back more than most of the action stuff in the prequels. I love it when the action builds up rather slowly and develops into a full theme, played to its own right and fullness up to the very end where everything explodes. Goldsmith was an expert on it, "The Plan" from Extreme Prejudice or the Final battle in Rambo III being perfect examples.


    Agree with you here , Ralph.

    Williams action music in the 80's or even the earlier 90's was more melodic and alwayls building the theme step by step.

    Now he seems more focused in the dissonant an the "fireworks" like the timpani and Xylophones thing.

    He returned to this stuff in the first track of Revenge of the sith, then he moved into this new style in the latter tracks, like General Greivous. sad