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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeApr 1st 2010
    SCHINDLER'S LIST - both film and score - are PILLARS in film history and one of my own personal favourites (although I REALLY have to be in the right mood to play either). MUNICH caught me offguard because of its adult treatment with no sense of sentimentalism; it's a strong film with some beautiful music that even made it onto my "Religious Sound" list. But it's really in League 2 if SCHINDLER is premier league. IMO.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeApr 1st 2010
    We don't do '"IMO" here over at MT, Thor.

    We do "FACT!"

    wink
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeApr 1st 2010
    ^
    FACT!
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeApr 1st 2010
    Steven wrote
    Much better? uhm

    Munich was very good, but it didn't leave a fraction of the impression that Schindler's List left on me. There's no moment in Munich that I felt had anywhere near the emotional impact of that last scene in Schindler's List. I can see why you might prefer it, but I have to disagree about it being a better film. Vehemently disagree.

    A very good film though, one I'd like to revisit soon.


    I'll come back to this one.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeApr 1st 2010
    Talos wrote
    The sportpaleis, is that the building next to the highway that looks like a giant circustent?

    Lol! It is!

    Been there?
    Kazoo
  1. Christodoulides wrote
    Munich is a very good modern Williams album; but of course it's nowhere even near Schindler's List. With the latter he broke new ground. Munich is far different, and it's much more influenced by the modern film musical surroundings (some Zimmerisms in the too) whereas Schindler's List was one of those rare masterpieces where he set new ground, he really re-invented himself in a wholly diachronic piece of work.

    I read a pretty tepid review of the score saying that the vocals were more or less a lazy distraction from the score, which I fundamentally disagree with. "Remembering Munich" is one of the most gut-punching pieces Williams has ever written, and the vocals are a major factor.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2010
    Timmer wrote
    Steven wrote
    Much better? uhm

    Munich was very good, but it didn't leave a fraction of the impression that Schindler's List left on me. There's no moment in Munich that I felt had anywhere near the emotional impact of that last scene in Schindler's List. I can see why you might prefer it, but I have to disagree about it being a better film. Vehemently disagree.

    A very good film though, one I'd like to revisit soon.


    I'll come back to this one.


    Munich, for me is a more "real" film, more stark and lacking the sentimentalism of Schindler's, Neeson's speech near the end felt too staged and showy and separated me from the film, Spielberg's decision to film in ( admittedly gorgeous cinematography ) black & white was a wrong one in my opinion, there's so much footage of the real thing in B&W, I would like to have seen this filmed in living colour.

    Oh, and the red coat business was pretentious.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2010
    Timmer wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Steven wrote
    Much better? uhm

    Munich was very good, but it didn't leave a fraction of the impression that Schindler's List left on me. There's no moment in Munich that I felt had anywhere near the emotional impact of that last scene in Schindler's List. I can see why you might prefer it, but I have to disagree about it being a better film. Vehemently disagree.

    A very good film though, one I'd like to revisit soon.


    I'll come back to this one.


    Munich, for me is a more "real" film, more stark and lacking the sentimentalism of Schindler's, Neeson's speech near the end felt too staged and showy and separated me from the film, Spielberg's decision to film in ( admittedly gorgeous cinematography ) black & white was a wrong one in my opinion, there's so much footage of the real thing in B&W, I would like to have seen this filmed in living colour.

    Oh, and the red coat business was pretentious.


    Interestingly, I find all of the elements you criticize as not only excellent, but also CRUCIAL to the film and what Spielberg wants to express. The b/w photography in a contemporary lighting added a sense of grittiness and poetry to the images that would not have been the same in colour, the climax with Neeson was crucial to the character development/arc and the red dress worked on so many levels - from being Schindler's focal point (he first realizes the trauma of what he is capitalizing on) to the colour symbolizing the agony of all the victims. That he repeats it later on (when the body of the red girl is on the carriage), it becomes a very effective narrative tool too.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2010
    I don't agree with much that you say, Thor, but what you wrote above is dead on!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2010
    Yep, I'm throwing my lot in with Thor as well.
    Those were my exact sentiments too on seeing the film, and they were -surprisingly even to myself- just as strong the second time I watched it, years later.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2010
    I never found the red coat scene pretentious. Can you explain why you think that, Timmer?
  2. It can give a sense of being too in-your-face (and why THIS particular girl?). I never found it pretentious though.

    The ending is a bit of an issue here, because while the movie is a masterpiece, it MAY take you out of the experience - a gritty, brutal, shocking war drama, first of its kind too (while the movie STILL HAS a huge impact on people and is one of the all-time masterpieces, imagine how it was on the very PREMIERE of it, when it was something nobody saw before, it was a total novelty) and suddenly you have the ending when Spielberg becomes his old self.

    From a gritty drama with lots of documentary quality to a tear-jerker and not because of the speech itself, but because of Schindler crying over his NSDAP badge. Also, I think, we could have been spared the final scene on Schindler's grave - the final shot of the Schindlerjuden in black and white was enough and a very powerful image. The ending was a bit too much to me, to be honest.

    Except that a masterpiece. And the black and white simply adds grit and reality to a war drama. The red coat worked wonders on a psychological level (OMG, what are they doing to her, and later, OMG, they burnt her ALIVE??) for Schindler. He noticed her -> he changed. I find this a very poetic way of showing character development.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2010
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Also, I think, we could have been spared the final scene on Schindler's grave - the final shot of the Schindlerjuden in black and white was enough and a very powerful image. The ending was a bit too much to me, to be honest.


    Disagree. Out of all the powerful moments in the film this was for me THE most powerful. To see the real life Schindler's Jews (with the actors that portrayed them) and their off spring paying tribute to the man that saved their lives brought tears to my eyes. A fitting tribute to a true hero!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  3. To me it's a proof that really, by then Spielberg hasn't really matured yet. From a gritty drama he goes back to the child-like sentimentality he is renowned for. That's why it didn't fit to me.

    I much prefer the ambiguous ending of Munich here, which would be a masterpiece WITHOUT that sex scene to me.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2010
    PawelStroinski wrote
    To me it's a proof that really, by then Spielberg hasn't really matured yet. From a gritty drama he goes back to the child-like sentimentality he is renowned for. That's why it didn't fit to me.


    Nothing childlike about a small tribute to a man who helped save the lives of thousands of people and the many generations to come.

    PawelStroinski wrote
    I much prefer the ambiguous ending of Munich here, which would be a masterpiece WITHOUT that sex scene to me.


    Munich was solid... but it took a second viewing at home for me to like it. I first saw it in the theatre and was bored stiff. And the sex scene was GOD AWFUL!!!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2010
    PawelStroinski wrote
    From a gritty drama with lots of documentary quality to a tear-jerker and not because of the speech itself, but because of Schindler crying over his NSDAP badge
    .

    The badge is just the catalyst. It's the thing that finally makes him realize what he has done and what he COULD have done. This is something you only realize POST-event, and in the case of Schindler, it was crucial to end his character development on that note. It feels uncomfortable because you're not accustomed to see him in that mode (as he's mostly been occupied with survivial of himself and his list people), but it's what really makes him a well-rounded and HUMAN individual. Like the equally-debated ending of A.I., it is a CRUCIAL component to the movie.

    Also, I think, we could have been spared the final scene on Schindler's grave - the final shot of the Schindlerjuden in black and white was enough and a very powerful image. The ending was a bit too much to me, to be honest.


    I also strongly disagree with this. In fact, several of my friends who were not so hot on the film itself, pointed out this scene as the most powerful of them all. It's done with such grace, poignancy and lack of overt sentimentalism that it really helps contextualize the harrowing experience you've just been through. Another crucial element, IMO (in fact, ALL elements of this film are crucial....it's what makes it such a masterpiece).
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2010
    Thor wrote
    ALL elements of this film are crucial....it's what makes it such a masterpiece.


    FACT.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2010 edited
    Thor wrote
    it really helps contextualize the harrowing experience you've just been through.


    Yep. The chosen medium -drama, which has its drawbacks in that it removes us from the reality of the situation.-, has been put solidly into perspective by showing us the people who lived it.
    To me it was an shocking moment as it dragged me out of the comfort of a cinematic experience, and into the life of these people. The shift from drama to actuality was a true catalyst in the realization that this happened,and the one moment I was truly unable to keep my emotions in check.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2010
    Martijn wrote
    Thor wrote
    it really helps contextualize the harrowing experience you've just been through.


    Yep. The chosen medium -drama, which has its drawbacks in that it removes us from the reality of the situation.-, has been put solidly into perspective by showing us the people who lived it.
    To me it was an shocking moment as it dragged me out of the comfort of a cinematic experience, and into the life of these people. The shift from drama to actuality was a true catalyst in the realization that this happened,and the one moment I was truly unable to keep my emotions in check.


    Same here. I didn't necessarily react so strongly to the drama film's finale, but that final scene - with tangible people in documentary realism - really made me well up.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010
    I miss more preivously unreleased John Williams CD's, damnit! Either new or old. Anyone else?
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010
    I miss more new John Williams CDs. sad
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010 edited
    What would make me happy is a remastering and expansion of DRACULA and a domestic CD release and remastering of SPACECAMP. The original program of the Japanese disc would be just fine!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  4. Spacecamp, seconded for sure. Underrated, yet wonderful little score.
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010
    Yeah, a reissue of SPACECAMP would be good, as I could finally throw away my ol' CD-R of the rare and expensive CD.

    But even more than that, there's a VAST back catalogue of unreleased scores and concert works that I'd love to see/hear.
    I am extremely serious.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010
    FAMILY PLOT would be highest on my must haves.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  5. Oh yes, that score needs a release.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010
    Indeed. I own a bootleg of that with spectacular sound, and if the same masters were used in a legit release, I'd pick it up in a heartbeat. That said, it's not that exciting all the way through. The highlight is really the "End Titles" piece, which is already available on multiple compilations. There's a lot of suspense music that isn't very rewarding, IMO.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2010 edited
    Has anyone else noticed how the "Window to the Past" theme from Harry Potter 3 is structurally related in a ridiculously ingenious way to the main Harry Potter theme? Almost like it's an adaption/extension rather than a separate and new theme. It's hard to hear it because of how differently the themes are used, but if you can hold the notes of the two themes in your mind simultaneously, or else look at them both on a sheet of music, I think you will see what I am talking about. I first noticed it years and years ago, and was awe-struck by the cleverness of it. Williams! punk
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2010
    Scribe wrote
    Has anyone else noticed how the "Window to the Past" theme from Harry Potter 3 is structurally related in a ridiculously ingenious way to the main Harry Potter theme? Almost like it's an adaption/extension rather than a separate and new theme. It's hard to hear it because of how differently the themes are used, but if you can hold the notes of the two themes in your mind simultaneously, or else look at them both on a sheet of music, I think you will see what I am talking about. I first noticed it years and years ago, and was awe-struck by the cleverness of it. Williams! punk


    Never noticed that, no, but thanks for the tip.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2010
    Scribe wrote
    Has anyone else noticed how the "Window to the Past" theme from Harry Potter 3 is structurally related in a ridiculously ingenious way to the main Harry Potter theme? Almost like it's an adaption/extension rather than a separate and new theme. It's hard to hear it because of how differently the themes are used, but if you can hold the notes of the two themes in your mind simultaneously, or else look at them both on a sheet of music, I think you will see what I am talking about. I first noticed it years and years ago, and was awe-struck by the cleverness of it. Williams! punk


    No, you've got it all wrong. It's just Williams being lazy and reusing the theme.

    He can't even come up with something new! What a hack!