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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 30th 2008
    FalkirkBairn wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    The way i see it, Geisha - in its own terms and within its time and era's standards, is correspondingly right up there with those gems you mention. smile

    It's interesting how different people view the same scores!!

    I would never consider Memoirs of A Geisha to be in the same league as the "classics" mentioned.

    There are many worthy scores that should be talked about more than they are - and many that should be talked about less than they actually are being talked about.


    So. Only certain eras are allowed to have their classics?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeMay 30th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    So. Only certain eras are allowed to have their classics?


    Yes.
    And u can't has none! tongue

    Seriously though, I don't think that was Alan's point at all.
    It's just that Geisha (to keep with that example) apparently doesn't have the same mega-popular impact that generally heralds a modern classic, and simply hasn't the track record yet.

    And I think Alan's main point was that there are a lot of scores that are deemed classics in semi-popular opinion (whether anyone personally agrees or not is something else entirely) that aren't discussed with the fervour they (should?) deserve.

    To me that only indicates that there is little interest in them here, and that's fine.
    I could go on and on about Jarre's Lawrence Of Arabia, or Waxman's Bride Of Frankenstein, but what would be the point if I'd just be talking to myself?

    Also, it's generalyy rather thankless to discuss the "established" classics, as it will just yield the same old reactions.

    Main post: "Star Wars is brilliant!"
    1000 reactions: "Yeah! Absolutely"
    3 reactions: "But he stole everything from <insert random composer>"
    15.000 reactions: "You're an idiot"
    1 reaction: "NP: Kung Fu Panda. Not so good like AWE"
    And that's that.

    That gets rather boring after three or four repetitions.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorChristoph
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2008
    honestly, I don't listen to Williams-scores. I know he has made classic tunes for films like Indiana Joens, ET, Star Wars ... he and Spielberg have had a great impact. Many adore him. But things like Indiana Jones and Star Wars just don't satisfy me. They are too bombastic in a simple way and lack real emotions. The only thing that really surprised me was memoirs of a Geisha. That's just a genious masterpiece. Maybe I got to listen more to the old stuff of Williams ...maybe I'm just a too pessimistic.
  1. Well, if you like Geisha, maybe I understand what you mean. Can you tell me what you think about Schindler´s List and Angela´s Ashes, in case you know them?

    There are some highly (real) emotional things not too bombastic in a lot of his other scores. A Window to the Past from Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azcaban is a perfect example, as well as E.T. and Me from, obviously, E.T..

    What do you think?
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      CommentAuthorJoris
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2008 edited
    Well,

    I must admit that I have almost every score John Williams wrote as well as his concert works. And I think he is a tremendous talented, versatile composer! If you like good ol' swashbuckling filmscore, with unforgettable themes, go and listen to his Indy, Star Wars & Superman-music! If you prefer more intimate compositions with a sense of drama, romanticism or a sparkle of hope, then I'm sure you will love scores such as: Terminal, Sabrina, Stanley & Iris, Rosewood, Angela's Ashes, Amistad, Memoirs of a geisha. These are scores i think, where he reaches out and does poignant things that grab you by the throat.
    If the rather classical approach and acoestic vibrance doesn't suits your taste, you really must seek out his more experimental, electronic - though very interesting - scores such as: sleepers (a true gem! not an easy listening, but once you understand the movie's troubles you will fall in love with this complex, eerie and baffling score), JFK, Nixon. Here the composer often intertwines an experimental touch that takes a very dence approach of filmmusic. So there's something for everyone to enjoy i think. Fact is that he seems to be the only maestro alive that does these kind of things! And although not every score he writes is a instant classic, it's truely craftmanship dictated by a lot of wisdom, know how and passion even now with his blessed age. The only composers that could come close to his way of working I think are Alexandre Desplat and Michael Giacchino.

    grtz, Jojo
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2008
    Christoph wrote
    honestly, I don't listen to Williams-scores. I know he has made classic tunes for films like Indiana Joens, ET, Star Wars ... he and Spielberg have had a great impact. Many adore him. But things like Indiana Jones and Star Wars just don't satisfy me. They are too bombastic in a simple way and lack real emotions. The only thing that really surprised me was memoirs of a Geisha. That's just a genious masterpiece. Maybe I got to listen more to the old stuff of Williams ...maybe I'm just a too pessimistic.


    Too bombastic in a simple way? Dude, there's nothing simple about Indiana Jones and Star Wars! shocked

    What Williams scores do you have? There's a lot more to him than Star Wars, trust me.
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2008 edited
    Christoph wrote
    But things like Indiana Jones and Star Wars just don't satisfy me. They are too bombastic in a simple way and lack real emotions.


    Yet... you love Hans Zimmer and Harry Gregson Williams? confused
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2008
    Christoph wrote
    But things like Indiana Jones and Star Wars just don't satisfy me. They are too bombastic in a simple way and lack real emotions.


    That's exactly why I love them, because they're completely over the top! punk Valid point though. wink
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2008 edited
    Anthony wrote
    Valid point though. wink


    Oh no you di'nt!

    You've heard the Force theme? Luke and Leia's theme? Luke and Vader's final battle music? Marion's theme? Are you trying to tell me they all lack real emotion? shocked

    Kids these days. rolleyes
  2. Well, maybe that IS the point. Taste changes, and some of Williams´ lovely themes might end up being regarded as a bit schmalzy by the young ones, as much as we consider some music from the very old movies to be too much sometimes.
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    Anthony wrote
    Valid point though. wink


    Oh no you di'nt!

    You've heard the Force theme? Luke and Leia's theme? Luke and Vader's final battle music? Marion's theme? Are you trying to tell me they all lack real emotion? shocked

    Kids these days. rolleyes


    Yes, they lack "real" emotion, but are overflowing with the fake, sugary over the top type of emotion (which is usually better than "real emotion" anyway). cool
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      CommentAuthorChristoph
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2008 edited
    BobdH wrote
    Christoph wrote
    But things like Indiana Jones and Star Wars just don't satisfy me. They are too bombastic in a simple way and lack real emotions.


    Yet... you love Hans Zimmer and Harry Gregson Williams? confused


    I prefer scores like kingdom of heaven and gladiator etc. far above the whole Indiana Jones and Star Wars trilogy. I'm going to follow the advise of Ralph Kruhm and Joris and listen more to score like Amnistad and Angela's ashes. I checked schindler's list and that's indeed a score that suits me better. But I'll never love his big bombastic scores in the way some people worship it, like Steve. Although I never denied that he's versatile.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2008
    Steven wrote
    Anthony wrote
    Valid point though. wink


    Oh no you di'nt!

    You've heard the Force theme? Luke and Leia's theme? Luke and Vader's final battle music? Marion's theme? Are you trying to tell me they all lack real emotion? shocked

    Kids these days. rolleyes


    Ah Steven, you know they are spewing garbage. Let them have their Zimmers and Gregson-Williams' while we listen to our Williams in peace.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2008 edited
    Erik Woods wrote
    Steven wrote
    Anthony wrote
    Valid point though. wink


    Oh no you di'nt!

    You've heard the Force theme? Luke and Leia's theme? Luke and Vader's final battle music? Marion's theme? Are you trying to tell me they all lack real emotion? shocked

    Kids these days. rolleyes


    Ah Steven, you know they are spewing garbage. Let them have their Zimmers and Gregson-Williams' while we listen to our Williams in peace.

    -Erik-


    Oi! Wait for ME!? I'm not sticking around with no people playing sorry ass tunes! wink
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2008 edited
    Mogens wrote
    Indy 4 was a lose-lose situation for Williams when it came to film music enthusiasts. It's been 19 years, and expectations were sky high. I don't think there's any way, Williams would have been able to meet the expectations fans had. Same situation as with The Phantom Menace.


    I do not yet own the score to Indy 4 (though I soon will), but just based off seeing the movie, I can say it is almost nothing compared to the original trilogy's scores. No real memorable themes (at least none that I could detect), no great overbearing emotional punch, etc. And I do also think The Phantom Menace suffered the same fate. Fans wait... wait... wait... then, 'Ooh, the movie's here! Let's pop in the soundtrack and... what the heck? Where is the old John Williams?' Now, I was much younger when I first heard that soundtrack, and yes, at the time, I loved it. It was new, it sounded cool, and I was so excited for the movie. Now, I rarely listen to it, and if I do, it's usually only Duel of the Fates or Anakin's Theme. Next came Attack of the Clones, which I was - and am - ok with. It's still different from the others, but it feels like a much better, deeper score than The Phantom Menace, I think. Next in line was Revenge of the Sith. I got it the day it was released, and at first I was like, 'What? This really doesn't sound like Star Wars... How in the world will this match the movie?' I saw the movie and thought it was a perfect match for the score and film. That is the only 'new John Williams' score I've bought in a while (that is, until I get soon the score to Indy 4), and, though the man used to be my favorite composer, he has gradually and sadly been slipping lower on my list of favorites. Of course, back in the '70s and '80s Williams was in his prime of composing, and it's that John Williams that I think I like the best. It's scores like Star Wars (the original one), The Empire Strikes Back, and E.T., that keep me in love with his music, and while the new John Williams is certainly different, he is still a very good composer, and I remain impressed with his accomplishments.
  3. Christoph wrote
    BobdH wrote
    Christoph wrote
    But things like Indiana Jones and Star Wars just don't satisfy me. They are too bombastic in a simple way and lack real emotions.


    Yet... you love Hans Zimmer and Harry Gregson Williams? confused


    I prefer scores like kingdom of heaven and gladiator etc. far above the whole Indiana Jones and Star Wars trilogy. I'm going to follow the advise of Ralph Kruhm and Joris and listen more to score like Amnistad and Angela's ashes. I checked schindler's list and that's indeed a score that suits me better. But I'll never love his big bombastic scores in the way some people worship it, like Steve. Although I never denied that he's versatile.


    This is the basic sign between someone who grew up with Hans Zimmer and someone who grew up with John Williams. Star Wars is beyond comparison to almost any score while for the youngsters, Zimmer's the god

    It's all a matter of fact that whoever grows up now, will love the wizards of that time.

    My god, people who are now 18 will adore Uwe Boll shocked biggrin
    waaaaaahhhhhhhh!!! Where's my nut? arrrghhhhhhh
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2008
    Tommy_Boy wrote

    My god, people who are now 18 will adore Uwe Boll shocked biggrin


    vomit
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2008
    Anthony wrote
    Tommy_Boy wrote

    My god, people who are now 18 will adore Uwe Boll shocked biggrin


    vomit


    You don't count Ant.....you are 19 wink
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorChristoph
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2008
    Tommy_Boy wrote

    This is the basic sign between someone who grew up with Hans Zimmer and someone who grew up with John Williams. Star Wars is beyond comparison to almost any score while for the youngsters, Zimmer's the god

    It's all a matter of fact that whoever grows up now, will love the wizards of that time.

    My god, people who are now 18 will adore Uwe Boll shocked biggrin


    I'm 20 in a couple of weeks and you're propably right. I grew up with Zimmer and my first experience with scores began with "the rock". biggrin
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2008
    Christoph wrote
    Tommy_Boy wrote

    This is the basic sign between someone who grew up with Hans Zimmer and someone who grew up with John Williams. Star Wars is beyond comparison to almost any score while for the youngsters, Zimmer's the god

    It's all a matter of fact that whoever grows up now, will love the wizards of that time.

    My god, people who are now 18 will adore Uwe Boll shocked biggrin


    I'm 20 in a couple of weeks and you're propably right. I grew up with Zimmer and my first experience with scores began with "the rock". biggrin


    Absolutely right. I grew up with Williams, Goldsmith, Bernstein, Barry, Morricone etc (admittedly towards the end of their careers) and that's what I love, and it's as impossible for me to comprehend how someone could prefer Zimmer to Williams as it is for someone 10 years younger than me to do the opposite - and look at all the people in their 50s-60s who adore Waxman and Tiomkin and don't see the appeal of Williams. It's all entirely understandable. We can all debate the pros and cons of certain composers and certain scores but if the objective of that debate is to actually change someone's mind then it will always be a losing battle, because music is such a personal thing which comes down to so many factors going beyond any technical appreciation.
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      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2008
    Tommy_Boy wrote
    This is the basic sign between someone who grew up with Hans Zimmer and someone who grew up with John Williams. Star Wars is beyond comparison to almost any score while for the youngsters, Zimmer's the god


    Um.. I'm 19 and I adore both Zimmer and Williams! biggrin
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2008
    DemonStar wrote
    Tommy_Boy wrote
    This is the basic sign between someone who grew up with Hans Zimmer and someone who grew up with John Williams. Star Wars is beyond comparison to almost any score while for the youngsters, Zimmer's the god


    Um.. I'm 19 and I adore both Zimmer and Williams! biggrin


    Same here. But then Williams has been a prolific composer ever since the 70's, so that covers a wide range of ages.

    The question is are you an expert on Steiner? Do you have many Waxman scores? Does Alfred Newman float your boat? I know I can't admit to all that. (Although I do have a relatively large collection of Golden Age scores, I don't listen to them as often as modern scores.)
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      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2008
    Steven wrote
    The question is are you an expert on Steiner? Do you have many Waxman scores? Does Alfred Newman float your boat? I know I can't admit to all that. (Although I do have a relatively large collection of Golden Age scores, I don't listen to them as often as modern scores.)


    To be honest I've only listened to a few scores by Bernstein, Rosza and Hermann, my favourite being Bernstein's Black Cauldron and Ten Commandments. I mainly listen to the 80's onwards scores, except Jaws which is a 75' score. My first ever score was The Lion King by Hans Zimmer and so I started with Disney scores like Dinosaur and eventually ventured into the film score world through that.
  4. Man can attain enlightenment on the question of film score appreciation.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2008
    It just takes some decades. There's the rub.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  5. Five years hard work will get over some of the bigger hurdles though. It's all enjoyment and expenditure from then on.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2008
    I don't think it's work. You just wake up one day and realize all that stuff you thought was absolutely the dog's bollocks back in the day, now sounds tired, outdated and jaded.

    And yearning for a proper melody, a line of musical thought that stimulates and challenges rather than merely fills you up, you tend to look further back. I can hardly claim to have grown up with the Newmans, Rozsas and Waxmans of the world, yet I continuously (re)turn to them.

    It's like I always say, and always will repeat: whatever you like now, let us sit down and talk again in twenty years, and see what remains.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  6. North was work for me... Less so now.

    Waxman can still be work for me at times. TARAS BULBA and PRINCE VALIANT got me hooked though without any work.

    Korngold never felt like work. Same with Herrmann. The highlights of Rozsa were never work - it was getting into the intermediate material that took me longer.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2008
    Well, it's not like just because they're Golden Age, they're all gods.

    With the exception of two scores, North leaves me absolutely cold.
    And the likes of Adolph Deutsch or Herman Stein have never made any kind of lasting impression.

    Of course I did mean the highlights, and so far, I take any Golden Age highlight over most modern age highlights!
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2008
    Martijn wrote
    I don't think it's work. You just wake up one day and realize all that stuff you thought was absolutely the dog's bollocks back in the day, now sounds tired, outdated and jaded.

    And yearning for a proper melody, a line of musical thought that stimulates and challenges rather than merely fills you up, you tend to look further back. I can hardly claim to have grown up with the Newmans, Rozsas and Waxmans of the world, yet I continuously (re)turn to them.

    It's like I always say, and always will repeat: whatever you like now, let us sit down and talk again in twenty years, and see what remains.


    Very well pointed out.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt