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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    Steven wrote
    *vaccine deniers


    No such thing.
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    Steven wrote
    It's an absurd oversimplification to conflate reasonable criticism of a nonsensical movement like anti-vaxxers with prejudice for "not accepting the mainstream".


    That attitude is just as harmful as the one you're demonizing. There needs to be rational dialogue between both sides, but most people are apparently intellectually too lazy to even consider the very well-reasoned arguments of vaccine skeptics. Which are not at all about obscure studies, that's a media straw-man.
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015 edited
    Scribe wrote
    Steven wrote
    *vaccine deniers


    No such thing.


    Unfortunately there is, just as there are global warming deniers, moon landing deniers, and all sorts of crackpot conspiracy theorists.

    Scribe wrote
    Steven wrote
    It's an absurd oversimplification to conflate reasonable criticism of a nonsensical movement like anti-vaxxers with prejudice for "not accepting the mainstream".


    That attitude is just as harmful as the one you're demonizing.


    No. The harmful attitude is letting people think these vaccine, ney, science deniers actually have a point.

    There needs to be rational dialogue between both sides, but most people are apparently intellectually too lazy to even consider the very well-reasoned arguments of vaccine skeptics. Which are not at all about obscure studies, that's a media straw-man.


    There are no well-reasoned arguments from vaccine skeptics, because the whole movement is based on a single fraudulent study that came out in the 90s linking vaccines to autism. This is like giving flat earthers attention for the sake of 'balanced dialogue'. They deserve attention insofar as to show how false their position is.

    It's nonsense, and it's dangerous nonsense at that.
  1. No, I'm certainly not a moral relativist. As a "Christian Atheist" I do believe that any system of morals needs to be rooted in something "higher". (No, not drugs. wink )

    But that is only my own personal view of things. As long as we agree on some basic rules, I am happy to go along with any naturalistic approach.

    It's just that I don't think that the answer to "what" is also the answer to "why". And I don't think that "why" is obsolete. For my outlook on live that question is central. smile
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    Captain Future wrote
    It's just that I don't think that the answer to "what" is also the answer to "why". And I don't think that "why" is obsolete. For my outlook on live that question is central. smile


    Essentially Hume's "Is ≠ Ought". But I disagree!

    The only assumption you really have to make is that the worst possible suffering is bad. To then even ask 'Why is the worst possible suffering bad?' is, I think, redundant. With that in mind, morality is about avoiding this rather dire situation, and traversing the many paths away from it by learning facts about nature (including the mechanisms of brains since for things to matter, they have to matter to conscious creatures).

    So, for example, something we know that causes pain and suffering, like female genital mutilation, when performed due to certain untenable religious beliefs (showing no redeemable or useful applications), is I think something we can say is objectively wrong. No amount of appealing to multiculturalism will hide the fact that FGM causes unnecessary suffering; it is not a matter of perspective. Admittedly the question of suffering vs. flourishing can be an incredibly complex one that admits to an almost never ending set of variables, but that doesn't mean that morality should depend on one's own point of view.

    Could such an objective view of morality be misused? Of course. One could believe in an objective morality and be wrong about what he or she thinks is right, but again this doesn't mean there aren't facts to be known about well being and how they relate to morality.

    Incidentally, I've had a lot of coffee today. dizzy
  2. Steven wrote

    Incidentally, I've had a lot of coffee today. dizzy


    biggrin
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015 edited
    Steven wrote
    There are no well-reasoned arguments from vaccine skeptics, because the whole movement is based on a single fraudulent study that came out in the 90s linking vaccines to autism. This is like giving flat earthers attention for the sake of 'balanced dialogue'. They deserve attention insofar as to show how false their position is.

    It's nonsense, and it's dangerous nonsense at that.


    It absolutely is not based on one study. I could write pages just summarizing the arguments; it's not even about autism at all per se. We (I say "we" as my girlfriend is one so I know more about it than most people, you can turn your brain off now because no one who has an emotional connection to a theory can possibly be right about it, obviously) just want to know why there are so many additives with studied toxic side effects (mercury? formaldehyde? MSG? aborted cow fetuses? etc), why some vaccines are distributed despite their own literature admitting no clinical trials were done, why the pharmaceutical companys keep changing their tune regarding how many vaccinations people need for lifelong immunity and always in the direction of more vaccinations, why a pro-vaccination group in Africa who had no reason to be suspicious of vaccines discovered abortifacients in the local shots, why some vaccines cause side effects that are worse than the targeted disease by several orders of magnitude, and why all of this is considered so okay to the CDC and the media that anyone who raises these points or asks legitimate questions is automatically labeled an "anti-vax nutjob" and is summarily told that they don't believe in vaccines.

    I believe in vaccines. They exist (lol, obviously), they work, they have worked for a very long time and have helped countless millions of people, they will continue to work in the future and there is no reason to believe vaccines in and of themselves cause autism or any other problems. On the other hand, nothing is black and white and I don't understand why every reasonable person doesn't care more about being provided answers to these questions, why everyone seems to automatically trust vaccines that are created by pharmaceutical companies whose main goal is profit and who, naturally, profit much more by providing flawed vaccines than they would by providing clean, perfect ones. But I understand both sides of the discussion and see merit in many of the counter-arguments to vaccine skeptics' concerns. I just wish it would not make one such a social pariah to discuss the subject. Those who have confronted religious extremists generally find that making them feel like you can understand their point of view is the first step towards getting them to question and eventually soften or abandon their beliefs and if science-minded folks really want to win over people like my girlfriend, calling them nutjobs does the opposite of helping. And finally, I can say that personally, all my chronic health problems began directly after my first adult round of vaccinations, and while that is obviously only circumstantial it gives me a reason to care about the issue.

    Okay, I'll try to shut up now, I've just been getting all bothered about my girlfriend and people like her being labeled a crazy arrogant nutjob in the media all week. And finding it here of all places was too much. I'm having a bad day. shame
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015 edited
    There is certainly an issue of fair and rigid trials in the pharmaceutical world, but this is a separate issue, or at least an issue misused to defend an ignorant position. 'Anti-vax' is a movement based on ignorance and stupidity. Asking for evidence for vaccines is not. There's a difference.

    An 'angry scientist' came up with one of the most damning replies to an anti-vaxxer (covering your concerns about the additives used in vaccines).
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    Well, I would venture to theorize that what is referred to as the "anti-vax" movement is mostly populated by reasonable people like my girlfriend and to a certain extent myself, who don't wish to be labeled that way and don't consider themselves part of a movement, just people with a set of experiences and knowledge which causes them to derive certain conclusions in a rational, non-hysterical way. Sure, there are a few crazy people like the guy in the link who can't even spell "phosphat", and those people ruin things for the majority. Maybe I give people too much credit and 99% of people just believe what they hear on the news / read on the internet, but I would like to think better of people than that.

    Interesting link, thanks for including it. I could easily rebut his points but I don't want to steer the thread any further off topic. If anyone really cares then PM me but you probably just want the crazy anti-vaxxer to shut up wink
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    Scribe wrote
    I could easily rebut his points.


    Yes, I'm sure you could.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    I see absolutely no issue with anti-vaxxers.
    One of the gravest dangers facing the earth is its completely out-of-control and increasing overpopulation.

    So it's either move off, but sadly NASA is as good as dead in the water these days (the wrost thing that happened to space exploration was the end of the Cold War), or die out.

    And as completely preventable diseases are now very likely to spread like wildfire again (luckily especially in the US: the historically paranoid mistrust against faceless "Big Business" and "government telling you what to do" giving ever more impetus to anyone with an internet connection "knowing better"), it's just a matter of a little time until a massive pandemic decimates the population.

    On a global scale, that wouldn't be a bad thing.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  3. I just detected an earthquake of sarcasm. wink

    And Steven: Thanks for that cartoon. An instant right-click.

    Btw, how does Michael Giacchino think about vaccines?
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    Captain Future wrote
    Btw, how does Michael Giacchino think about vaccines?


    This is hardly the place to talk about that! angry
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015 edited
    Steven wrote
    Scribe wrote
    I could easily rebut his points.


    Yes, I'm sure you could.


    Nope, I wouldn't need to google anything, I'm already quite cognizant of the issues he is speaking of. But you don't have to believe me wink

    And actually, I highly doubt you're going to get pro-anti-vaxxer links at the top of google's pile. Google knows what's up yo.
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    I believe that diseases were created by Big Pharma just so they could sell their vaccines and get rich. But you don't have to believe me.
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    I don't feel that's fair, I have not espoused anything even close to that level of absurdity, but whatever...you're probably just goading me at this point. tongue
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    Scribe wrote
    I have not espoused anything even close to that level of absurdity.


    I don't feel that's fair, given my experience and knowledge. It's only a few crazy people who ruin things for the majority of us.
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015 edited
    I guess I am too stoopid to understand the connection between what you said and what you quoted. slant

    (btw, not that you probably care either way but I am not pissed at you or anything, I have great respect for your mind and ideas, and I am enjoying the banter...it's a welcome distraction from the utter shit that is currently occurring real-time in my personal life.)
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    Scribe wrote
    (...it's a welcome distraction from the utter shit that is currently occurring real-time in my personal life.)


    We have found common ground. wink
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015 edited
    I see the discussion is still going, and may I applaud the civilized manner in which it is conducted?

    Can I just throw in that I'm officially addicted to the Jupiter Ascending score now? I have yet to listen to it again since watching the movie, but somehow I don't need to, because it's playing in my head the whole day now... dizzy
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015 edited
    MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES! MICHAEL GIACCHINO RULES!
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  4. Why do Americans always have to be so loud? wink
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    You might want to rethink that one, Cap'.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    Captain Future wrote
    Why do Americans always have to be so loud? wink


    How badly do you want your ass kicked? wink

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  5. Why? Has Canada joined the European Union recently?

    (I thought there was this Pan-America thing ... Everyone is American, from Alaska to Fireland.)
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    face-palm-mt
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2015
    You're a dead man, Captain!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2015
    Captain Future wrote
    Why? Has Canada joined the European Union recently?

    (I thought there was this Pan-America thing ... Everyone is American, from Alaska to Fireland.)


    Steady...
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorScribe
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2015
    What on earth is Fireland? Some reference from before my time?
    I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to!
  6. Fireland = Feuerland = Tierra del Fuego
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.