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    • CommentAuthorBlu
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2011
    Demetris wrote
    So is Yanni's music. It's FILM music we are talking about here.


    ...and this "FILM" music we are talking about must be like what?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2011
    Doesn't matter how it's like; it's got to serve the film primarily, the medium it was commissioned for.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2011
    NP: TAKING WOODSTOCK (Danny Elfman)

    Hippie klezmer music! Love it. Has a bit of Santaolalla vibe at times.
    I am extremely serious.
    • CommentAuthorBlu
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2011
    Demetris wrote
    Doesn't matter how it's like; it's got to serve the film primarily, the medium it was commissioned for.


    And that brings us back to what I asked in the first place. What is wrong with the Last Airbender's musical choices? Is it too loud for the film? Too dark? Too bright? What?
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2011
    Blu wrote
    Demetris wrote
    Doesn't matter how it's like; it's got to serve the film primarily, the medium it was commissioned for.


    And that brings us back to what I asked in the first place. What is wrong with the Last Airbender's musical choices? Is it too loud for the film? Too dark? Too bright? What?


    He asked a fair question 'D' and Erik.
    Tom
    listen to more classical music!
    •  
      CommentAuthorCristian
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2011 edited
    Demetris wrote
    Cristian wrote
    I'm sure JNH is surrounded by talented people I see no problem here. My only problem is with the current state of Hollywood.


    Well a lot of great gems came out this year as well from the said Hollywood as every other year so Hollywood is not the problem here apparently; very old and dead argument.


    It is the problem if the producers or director:
    - don't give the artistic freedom to the composer
    - hire a composer in the last minute to write a score in two weeks after they rejected the curent score because some people at the screening said it's bad.
    - force a composer to use a certain sound just because the mases think it's cool
    - don't have a passion for music

    All of these things happen in Hollywood so how can you say it's not a problem?

    Yes it's true that we also have great scores every year but these scores aren't the majority.

    Sequels, remakes, lots of specials effects, no storytelling, no originality...that is Hollywood today. And the music has to suffer.
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2011
    If you're paid $200,000 by dreamworks to write a score they can tell you what to do. If the composer is also the producer of the film it is a different story, which is rarely the case.
    Tom
    listen to more classical music!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2011
    sdtom wrote
    If you're paid $200,000 by dreamworks to write a score they can tell you what to do. If the composer is also the producer of the film it is a different story, which is rarely the case.
    Tom


    I think you can add a zero on the end of that if you're talking about JNH and I think that explains why he would be willing to put his name on some of the stuff he does, which he can't in all honesty be happy about on an artistic level.
  1. If someone was willing to pay me $2 million to essentially "phone in a score" once or twice a year, ensuring my family and my immediate financial future was essentially secured for the foreseeable future, and thereby allowing me to spend the rest of the time writing music for more creatively fulfilling projects, i know I'd do it in a heartbeat.
  2. Only a Russian could put it this way, but here goes:

    The man who has stolen in order never to thieve again remains a thief. Nobody who has ever betrayed his principles can have a pure relationship with life. Therefore when a film-maker says he will produce a pot-boiler in order to give himself the strength and the means to make the film of his dreams - that is so much deception, or worse, self-deception. He will never now make his film.


    Andrei Tarkovsky
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  3. Yeah, but since when did the Russians know anything about philosophy? wink
    • CommentAuthorstuthomas
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
    justin boggan wrote
    ...bringing with him far more often, some of Zimmer's people. I'm suire some of these folks are talented people in their own regard, and some could even compose good music, but attached to a more quality witer like Howard, they bring him down. I know Stuart M. Thomas reads here and even argued back & forth here a little a tie or two, but it's the truth. I'm sure on S.M.T.'s own, he's a very talented man. But...

    It all comes down to whether or not he's inspired creatively by these films to do sometyhing.


    Justin. I respect your opinions and your passion for the art form greatly. Many people here share your (and my) love for film and music and the marriage of the two. Now, I'm the first to admit that I'm not nearly as talented as James but I like to think I've grown as a writer being exposed to his work. I feel lucky to have worked with him for over 30 films now and I hope that I can only refine my writing over the coming years. Obviously I'm biased when I defend a score, as I felt necessary when people were so confounded about the success of Michael Clayton. This is not always a proper way to handle criticism but who among us is always able to turn the other cheek? smile

    I would like to say that I feel you may be overestimating the influence I have on his sound. Though I know you believe otherwise, James takes every score extremely seriously and his work ethic has not diminished nor has his dedication to the art. You may disagree with his stylistic choices but that's another topic entirely and one not worth debating because, like all art, it's subjective. We all have music we love and music we hate. Artists that wowed us one year and disappointed us the next. In any event, you have your opinion, though you have arrived at that opinion though some incorrect assumptions. I wish it was possible for more fans to be flies on the wall and see what goes into every film...How every decision is made, etc. Unfortunately, it isn't possible but it's a fascinating process and one that is not well understood by the public. I wish you the best and I hope you'll enjoy our work over the next year. We're very excited about all the upcoming projects.

    Happy Holidays and Happy New Year!

    Cheers, Stu.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011 edited
    Cristian wrote
    Demetris wrote
    Cristian wrote
    I'm sure JNH is surrounded by talented people I see no problem here. My only problem is with the current state of Hollywood.


    Well a lot of great gems came out this year as well from the said Hollywood as every other year so Hollywood is not the problem here apparently; very old and dead argument.


    It is the problem if the producers or director:
    - don't give the artistic freedom to the composer
    - hire a composer in the last minute to write a score in two weeks after they rejected the curent score because some people at the screening said it's bad.
    - force a composer to use a certain sound just because the mases think it's cool
    - don't have a passion for music

    All of these things happen in Hollywood so how can you say it's not a problem?

    Yes it's true that we also have great scores every year but these scores aren't the majority.

    Sequels, remakes, lots of specials effects, no storytelling, no originality...that is Hollywood today. And the music has to suffer.


    This all applies to all composers; Some make out their way, some don't; some come across as auto-pilot works, tired and straight-to-the paycheck. Like JNH's 2011 was. He's one of the greatest figures in modern film music, we would at least expect him to try, not give up; i can understand how the whole thing can tire and suck the fun and energy out of people, but composers like Horner, Newman, Jnh....we expect so much more from them. As for the Hollywood argument, again don't tell me that all Hollywood scores sound the same 'cause you know they don't. As i said, some composers at least try.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
    Jon Broxton wrote
    If someone was willing to pay me $2 million to essentially "phone in a score" once or twice a year, ensuring my family and my immediate financial future was essentially secured for the foreseeable future, and thereby allowing me to spend the rest of the time writing music for more creatively fulfilling projects, i know I'd do it in a heartbeat.


    To me, the paying audience, doesn't justify the crap you're going to throw out on me in order to fill your pockets; it's your problem, i don't care. It's still crap.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorCristian
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
    Demetris wrote

    This all applies to all composers; Some make out their way, some don't; some come across as auto-pilot works, tired and straight-to-the paycheck. Like JNH's 2011 was. He's one of the greatest figures in modern film music, we would at least expect him to try, not give up; i can understand how the whole thing can tire and suck the fun and energy out of people, but composers like Horner, Newman, Jnh....we expect so much more from them. As for the Hollywood argument, again don't tell me that all Hollywood scores sound the same 'cause you know they don't. As i said, some composers at least try.


    It's fine to not like a score but to say that the composer gave up, he's tired or he doesn't try is unacceptable and rude.
  4. stuthomas wrote
    justin boggan wrote
    ...bringing with him far more often, some of Zimmer's people. I'm suire some of these folks are talented people in their own regard, and some could even compose good music, but attached to a more quality witer like Howard, they bring him down. I know Stuart M. Thomas reads here and even argued back & forth here a little a tie or two, but it's the truth. I'm sure on S.M.T.'s own, he's a very talented man. But...

    It all comes down to whether or not he's inspired creatively by these films to do sometyhing.


    Justin. I respect your opinions and your passion for the art form greatly. Many people here share your (and my) love for film and music and the marriage of the two. Now, I'm the first to admit that I'm not nearly as talented as James but I like to think I've grown as a writer being exposed to his work. I feel lucky to have worked with him for over 30 films now and I hope that I can only refine my writing over the coming years. Obviously I'm biased when I defend a score, as I felt necessary when people were so confounded about the success of Michael Clayton. This is not always a proper way to handle criticism but who among us is always able to turn the other cheek? smile

    I would like to say that I feel you may be overestimating the influence I have on his sound. Though I know you believe otherwise, James takes every score extremely seriously and his work ethic has not diminished nor has his dedication to the art. You may disagree with his stylistic choices but that's another topic entirely and one not worth debating because, like all art, it's subjective. We all have music we love and music we hate. Artists that wowed us one year and disappointed us the next. In any event, you have your opinion, though you have arrived at that opinion though some incorrect assumptions. I wish it was possible for more fans to be flies on the wall and see what goes into every film...How every decision is made, etc. Unfortunately, it isn't possible but it's a fascinating process and one that is not well understood by the public. I wish you the best and I hope you'll enjoy our work over the next year. We're very excited about all the upcoming projects.

    Happy Holidays and Happy New Year!

    Cheers, Stu.


    Thank you, Stu. I was honored to participate in a Hans Zimmer recording session this year and was lucky enough to hear the demos and I agree with every single sentiment you say.

    In my article about it (sorry for the shameless self-promotion here) I tried to give as much insight into Hans' writing process as I could, combining my personal experience with it with what he and his co-workers have said during many interviews and the final argument really boils down to this:

    We don't understand the motivation behind every single decision a composer has made. Even if I actually saw anyone, in my case Hans, writing, I don't think I could fully understand where is every single note is coming from, maybe even the composer himself doesn't fully understand it. We tend to find scores uninspiring/uninspired, but we don't know the motivation of a certain scene and yeah, I am not trying to defend scores that aren't good, by no means. Of course I agree that aesthetic perception is something intrinsically subjective, even the way a score works in a film is very subjective, to keep with, sorry, Hans Zimmer, I heard about a lot of issues people had with what I think is his best in-film score in many years - Inception. Directors don't properly understand every decision they make, let alone writers. In fact, in the case of the said Inception, to keep it spoiler-less, the final scene was of course subject to many discussions and asked about it, Chris Nolan said "I have kids, so I think it's all real", but even he is open to interpretations. Not all question are answered by artists themselves, mind you.

    As a working reviewer I find it my duty to try to reverse engineer the process and now that I know how things went on one particular score with one particular composer, I think I'm able to understand how he works at least to a small extent. As a hopefully future filmmaker, who has worked on a film score from its pre-production side (helped on spotting and temping), I can only hope that it makes me not only a better collaborator, but also a better person.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  5. stuthomas wrote
    justin boggan wrote
    ...bringing with him far more often, some of Zimmer's people. I'm suire some of these folks are talented people in their own regard, and some could even compose good music, but attached to a more quality witer like Howard, they bring him down. I know Stuart M. Thomas reads here and even argued back & forth here a little a tie or two, but it's the truth. I'm sure on S.M.T.'s own, he's a very talented man. But...

    It all comes down to whether or not he's inspired creatively by these films to do sometyhing.


    Justin. I respect your opinions and your passion for the art form greatly. Many people here share your (and my) love for film and music and the marriage of the two. Now, I'm the first to admit that I'm not nearly as talented as James but I like to think I've grown as a writer being exposed to his work.


    It's a great oppritunity, and I'm glad people like him give those chances.
    Also, at least you admit to your abilities, 'cause if you came in here and said ,"I'm as great as James", well, it would be a very interesting series of posts from members of this forum. ;-)

    I feel lucky to have worked with him for over 30 films now and I hope that I can only refine my writing over the coming years. Obviously I'm biased when I defend a score, as I felt necessary when people were so confounded about the success of Michael Clayton. This is not always a proper way to handle criticism but who among us is always able to turn the other cheek? smile


    I'll debate you another day about the "turn the other cheek" thing...

    The success of "Michael Clayton", I'll assume you meant the score, doesn't baffle me. It's a very involving collective of thought, but to sum it up in a real loose manner, one FSM member put it best years ago (I'm paraphrasing here):
    We're so desperate for quality, good scores, we've come to forgive lesser efforts.

    I don't want to rant forever and a day, so I'll try to keep it something resembling concise.

    The "Michael Clayton" score (hereonin refered to as "MC") reflects far more than a poor effort. It's a calling card for the state of Hollywood.

    Hollywood is cranking out so much filmatic bile it's hard to inspire composers. And even when they are somehow moved to give an effort, there are many hurdles in their way: temp track loving directors, competition with songs for screen time, an uninformed director's wants, butting heads (or buttheads) producers yanking the composer every which way but Sunday; and musically inept people incharge who don't understand scores, how they work, and what they do, leading to a pulsing synth, looped percussion, and any serious of now cliche RC moves (yeah, I'm not a fan -- best not to debate me).

    So, here comes along "MC", a film nobody really asked for, or wanted, that wasn't timely in any historical sense, and didn't promise any real entertainment, aside from giving Clooney some face time to those still lingering female fans of "E.R." days (hey, J.N.H. tie-in). Had this been the 1980's, I think we all know generally what Jerry and Elmer would have given us (Basil, is a little harder to pin down). But in the 2000 to 2010, even I would be weary of Jerry. Not Elmer though, I believe he would have passed on it.
    But it doesn't take the 1980's, the 1970's, or any other decade to get a good score. Even a film like that could have gotten something quite good. None of us, except possibly you, would know what the real musical politics where behind the scenes; perhaps James wanted to do it that way -- he liked it, maybe the director wanted some kind of Bourne-like bastardized 100th generation clone. Who knows. But the end result speaks.
    Intead of seeing this as an oppritunity to spread his wings, experiment, accomplish something, he did it like a bad job and moved on. Where it doesn't really matter what you did or what you tried, so long as it was out of the way and you got paid. I expect that kind of thing if you have a crummy job pushing carts at a grocery store, or if you clean the showers at a gym, but not when you do something you've said you love, for a living. Something that touches your heart, blah, blah, blah, sentimental expression, blah, blah. IT would be another thing if he was saving it up for another project, but while there were some shinning moments in his 2007 output, more or less it was pretty much flatliners (though I have to admit, I didn't care for "I Am Legend", so I vetoed it here).

    I think Howard is very likely an intelligent man when it comes to films and Hollywood. I believe he knew exactly what "MC" was -- he was under no delusions, I feel.

    He was unsinpired, gave an uninspired effort. He would have pulled a Jerry and gave it an Above & Beyond effort, but he didn't. The Hollywood Churn Machine cranked out another forgotten vault space waster. Yay.

    I would like to say that I feel you may be overestimating the influence I have on his sound. Though I know you believe otherwise, James takes every score extremely seriously and his work ethic has not diminished nor has his dedication to the art.


    There's a distinct different between the J.N.H. of the Shyamalan period, and the J.N.H. of now, including that last Shyamalamadingdong film. I don't doubt his dedication. One can show up to work everyday in dedication. It's how and what they do that matters. I lay no blame directly on you. You aren't after all, Tyler Bates.

    You may disagree with his stylistic choices but that's another topic entirely and one not worth debating because, like all art, it's subjective.


    I understand, and we are in agreeance on the first part, but the sujectivity partis not always subjective. At a certain point one is overlooking what art is and what the piece means. One has to stand back and just say, "This statue of Jesus covered in shit is just a statue of Jesus covered in shit and that artist is shit".

    We all have music we love and music we hate.



    Gary Larson (The Far Side), put it best in his "The Pre History of the Far Side" when he noted that perhaps he was just a little "too close" to the joke. Maybe you're just al ittle too lose to "MC". Case in point, craig Armstrong's score to "In Time" got some bad reviews at the boards. One saying it was just aweful. But go to the website (I won't name names here) or somebody who worked on it, and he gushes over it being one of the best scores by Armstrong. I thgink he may be a little too lose to the joke...


    I wish it was possible for more fans to be flies on the wall and see what goes into every film...How every decision is made, etc.


    Hey, any time he feels like inviting a fan who lives in CA to the studio to witness, I'm sure he'll get a landslide of willing participants... ;-)

    I wish you the best and I hope you'll enjoy our work over the next year. We're very excited about all the upcoming projects.


    I personally hold out hope, but like my love for new Silvestri efforts, it's dwindling.


    Happy Holidays and Happy New Year!

    Cheers, Stu.


    Merry Christmas.







    Well, well, well, now maybe if I say David Newman reads the boards, he'll hop on over, too. ;-)
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
  6. franz_conrad wrote
    Only a Russian could put it this way, but here goes:

    The man who has stolen in order never to thieve again remains a thief. Nobody who has ever betrayed his principles can have a pure relationship with life. Therefore when a film-maker says he will produce a pot-boiler in order to give himself the strength and the means to make the film of his dreams - that is so much deception, or worse, self-deception. He will never now make his film.


    Andrei Tarkovsky
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  7. Yeah, nobody still cares, franz ;-)
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
  8. (Actually it was a point in your favour... but sure, I'll leave you to your arguments and check in again this time next year to see if JNH has found time for a musical soul.)
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  9. Justin, where the hell did you get the idea that Michael Clayton was a movie nobody wanted?! It was the directorial debut of a generally praised writer, it featured some of the biggest acting talent that could act in it, namely George Clooney (not because of ER) and Tilda Swinton and it was HUGE on the Oscars...

    And where did you get Bourne of all things? First, there is no musical connection WHATSOEVER between the JNH score and Powell's trilogy scores and even if there WAS one, I wouldn't blame that particular movie for having a Bourne connection? Why?

    The reason is simple. Tony Gilroy wrote ALL the Bourne movies. He, Matt Damon and Powell are the only people (as far as I remember) that worked on the whole trilogy. So he could know a bit about the process there.

    Also, had Gilroy believed that JNH phoned his score in, he wouldn't have hired him for his next project. And guess what! He did!
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
    justin boggan wrote
    Yeah, nobody still cares, franz ;-)


    If ever there was an appropriate time for this guy, it's now:

    face-palm-mt
  10. PawelStroinski wrote
    Justin, where the hell did you get the idea that Michael Clayton was a movie nobody wanted?! It was the directorial debut of a generally praised writer, it featured some of the biggest acting talent that could act in it, namely George Clooney (not because of ER) and Tilda Swinton and it was HUGE on the Oscars...


    It's Hollywood wanking itself. And getting really excited about it. Biggest acting talent means nothing. That right there is the first warning bell, and first strike against the picture. You don't cast a movie based on "names", but on the acting abilities and needs of the characters.


    Also, had Gilroy believed that JNH phoned his score in, he wouldn't have hired him for his next project. And guess what! He did!


    Oh, B.S., people re-hire people who phone in all aspects of movies in Hollywood all the time. Again, self wanking.

    Outside of the Hollywood circle, I can't find anybody but a few folks like you, who give a shit.



    Franz,
    I;m poking fun at you. You can't be serious and quote people from history like him or, say, Thomas Paine, on the Interwebs. Nobody cares. ;-)
    If they did, I'd be quoting Thomas Paine, Abraham Lincoln, etc., when appropriate.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
    Jon Broxton wrote
    If someone was willing to pay me $2 million to essentially "phone in a score" once or twice a year, ensuring my family and my immediate financial future was essentially secured for the foreseeable future, and thereby allowing me to spend the rest of the time writing music for more creatively fulfilling projects, i know I'd do it in a heartbeat.


    We have choices. This was the very reason that Korngold left Hollywood and spent the last few years of his life composing classical music that few listened to in his time frame. It's only been 40 or 50 years after his death that he has achieved some measure of respect.
    Thomas
    listen to more classical music!
  11. (And just a note to Pawel... if Zimmer and JNH are true artists and the work speaks for itself, and Justin so misguided, it's probably not the best use of time to take up arms against someone who is convinced otherwise. wink Message board incredulity is the least satisfied emotion in human history.)
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
    franz_conrad wrote
    franz_conrad wrote
    Only a Russian could put it this way, but here goes:

    The man who has stolen in order never to thieve again remains a thief. Nobody who has ever betrayed his principles can have a pure relationship with life. Therefore when a film-maker says he will produce a pot-boiler in order to give himself the strength and the means to make the film of his dreams - that is so much deception, or worse, self-deception. He will never now make his film.


    Andrei Tarkovsky


    And he produced material under communism
    Tom
    listen to more classical music!
  12. (Keep in mind he was at odds with censors his whole career, and left his home country in order to keep making films, dying in exile of cancer in circumstances that remain suspicious.)
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  13. Having just read a large book on Soviet Russia and the KGB (and it's various incarnations), I'd say he's pretty damn lucky to still be alive, due in no part to leaving Russia -- which itself, depending on the tyime period, was a some of a miracle to pull off. If he'd have stayed, he'd be in a camp where he'd simply die.

    It's truely shocking and remarkable what the KGB pulled off all over the world during the '70's alone.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
  14. Um... he did die. wink And yes, some did think he was poisoned by the KGB, although it's more likely he contracted -- along with a number of his cast and crew -- while making STALKER near a dangerous chemical factory.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
    a true artist
    listen to more classical music!