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  1. Antineutrino wrote
    The only thing both pieces have in common is a fast playing piano... but of course it's by Horner, so it has to be a rip-off.


    Did I say rip-off? No, I said 'based on'. And it's not just instrumentation, that chord progression and jubilant result is quite similar. I think it's fair to say in most scenarios that this composer has a way of imbibing ideas from the classical canon and outputting them in reworked arrangements appropriate to the films he's scoring. If I were hiring him, that would be my primary reason for doing so.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  2. And actually it isn't the first time Horner refers to the symphony. He did that in Enemy at the Gates in one of the theme arrangement, inspiration is most obvious in the end of Tanya (End Credits).
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    Antineutrino wrote
    Thank god he is the only composer in the history of film music who has ever taen ideas out of classical music. I could not imagine how Star Wars would have sounded if it wasn't so highly original. smile


    A tired Horner defense.

    "Horner isn't the only one." rolleyes

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorThomas
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    Maybe Horner should be regarded more as an arranger than a composer? It's part of his style to rely on ideas from classical music. I'm sure he does it very much on purpose.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAntineutrino
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008 edited
    It's just a fact that there's not a single Horner score more derivative than Star Wars.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    Antineutrino wrote
    It's just a fact that there's not a single Horner score more derivative as Star Wars.


    What's that you say?

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008 edited
    *sigh*
    Yet another "pundit" who thinks he can hear some obscure Smile pop song from the early seventies "clearly reflected" in two and a half bars of Star Wars. Been there, quite tired of disproving that.
    I've heard naysayers argue that Star Wars was "clearly"derivative of Wagner "because it employed themes".
    Yeah, I know, it's a strawman, but this is getting almost as tiring as Horner being derided, and the latter has had far more cause to have been.
    rolleyes
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    Martijn wrote
    *sigh*


    Ditto!

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    C'mon... Star Wars is one of the most derivative scores there's ever been. Doesn't make it bad though.
  3. Wagner, Holst, Tchaikovsky, possibly Dvorak, I think Prokofiev, Stravinsky, so many of them biggrin

    And it doesn't make it bad. Because Williams doesn't rewrite classical *theme*, which Horner quite did (Bicentennial Man has a theme that is derivative of Braveheart AND Holst's Jupiter at once). What Horner's done with Shostakovich's Fifth (the Largo and Achilles' Theme or the theme from the final part of the symphony) and Khachaturian's Gayane Adagio (since Aliens - I know it's probably a 2001 reference demanded by Cameron) is beyond any influence that Williams had in his career. Though what he does with Stravinsky recently starts to be close, to me...
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  4. PawelStroinski wrote...is beyond any influence that Williams had in his career. Though what he does with Stravinsky recently starts to be close, to me...

    Wrong.

    Listen to "Molly on the Shore" by Percy Grainger and compare it to "Blowing Off Steam" from Far and Away" or listen to the Tchaikovsky in Home Alone or the Stravinsky in Jaws... sleep
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    Antineutrino wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote...is beyond any influence that Williams had in his career. Though what he does with Stravinsky recently starts to be close, to me...

    Wrong.

    Listen to "Molly on the Shore" by Percy Grainger and compare it to "Blowing Off Steam" from Far and Away" or listen to the Tchaikovsky in Home Alone or the Stravinsky in Jaws... sleep


    Again, another attempt by a desperate Horner fan trying to validate Horner plagiarism by bringing other composers into the mix.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  5. beer
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    biggrin
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  6. Antineutrino wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote...is beyond any influence that Williams had in his career. Though what he does with Stravinsky recently starts to be close, to me...

    Wrong.

    Listen to "Molly on the Shore" by Percy Grainger and compare it to "Blowing Off Steam" from Far and Away" or listen to the Tchaikovsky in Home Alone or the Stravinsky in Jaws... sleep


    Stravinsky - yes, he is a very important influence to Williams, especially recently.

    I forgot about the damn Nutcracker in Home Alone. Got me annoyed, yeah. Though the same goes with Shostakovich and Horner.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    I forgot about the damn Nutcracker in Home Alone. Got me annoyed, yeah.


    It's a Christmas score.
    99% of all Christmas scores at one point or another reference the Nutcracker!
    It's a cultural reference!
    Jeez... rolleyes
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    ^ Thank you
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  7. But not *rewrite* a cue...
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    Absolutely!
    Try and give Broughton's Eloise score a listen for example!
    Happens all the time. Like I said: it's a cultural reference.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  8. What the hell has Nutcracker to do with Christmas?

    Must make a Christmas movie using Swan Lake
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    Erm...Have you SEEN the ballet?
    Christmas is featured most prominently. It opens with a Christmas Eve scene, in fact.

    And it's the most popular ballet performed, primarily around Christmas time.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008 edited
    Pawel, do you always over-analyze stuff to death in terms of plagiarism and straightly-lifted influences? 'Cause i'd advice a master's degree or something; of course you get a straight F in personal benefit and enjoyment from musical experiences right-away! tongue biggrin wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  9. My master thesis is in fact about Biblical influences in the most beautiful Polish Renaissance poem, so there biggrin

    I am annoyed if somebody doesn't have the creativity to do something that doesn't just rewrite pieces note by note. That's why I avoided 300 all the time (the movie too).

    And I know what you're about here - Tyler doesn't have as great thematic material as Williams does normally (even in Home Alone, I just would burn Holiday Flight biggrin ) and his orchestral performance is just stale compared to other composers, even in that generation (though Pete Anthony rarely fails).

    So there.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    300 is a case nobody should EVER compare with ANY other score so far, if you ask me. wink

    The SR (r.i.p) thread about TYLER BATES contains all my arguments and audio examples on this subject matter and i'll never approach it again; probably.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2008
    *cough* *cough* Oh and *cough*

    Christodoulides wrote
    of course you get a straight F in personal benefit and enjoyment from musical experiences right-away! tongue biggrin wink


    biggrin
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  10. Well, there are lots of derivative scores I do enjoy (Lair, Pirates of the Caribbean 1 - *somehow*, Transformers, Cutthroat Island, some large Horner scores), Demetris. I',m rather annoyed that such a great composer resorts to it. And with Tyler I find him to lack in other things than only originality, though had he written something remotely original, I'd have much more respect to him, I guess.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  11. Just so everyone remembers why this started, last night while listening to THE NEW WORLD, I had an 'oh my god! Now I remember where I've heard that before! That's bloody Saint-Saens!'-moment. (You should imagine Saint-Saens pronounced in a broad Australian accent.) wink
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2008
    Antineutrino wrote
    The only thing both pieces have in common is a fast playing piano... but of course it's by Horner, so it has to be a rip-off.

    Thank god he is the only composer in the history of film music who has ever taen ideas out of classical music. I could not imagine how Star Wars would have sounded if it wasn't so highly original. smile


    A very good point Stefan, but I think it's the fact that Horner's "rips" are more obvious.

    A VERY good point on Star Wars though, where Williams clearly references Stravinsky's Rite Of Spring and Holst Mars. No need to mention Korngold which was intentional.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2008
    Martijn wrote
    *sigh*
    Yet another "pundit" who thinks he can hear some obscure Smile pop song from the early seventies "clearly reflected" in two and a half bars of Star Wars. Been there, quite tired of disproving that.
    I've heard naysayers argue that Star Wars was "clearly"derivative of Wagner "because it employed themes".
    Yeah, I know, it's a strawman, but this is getting almost as tiring as Horner being derided, and the latter has had far more cause to have been.
    rolleyes


    Amen!

    There's only ONE smilie that can properly sum up the Horner debate, and that is this one: sleep
    I am extremely serious.
    • CommentAuthorNick
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2008
    Erik Woods wrote

    Again, another attempt by a desperate Horner fan trying to validate Horner plagiarism by bringing other composers into the mix.

    -Erik-


    No wonder I've become sick to death of these film score forums, with comments like that.