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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    That's the key right there... the amount of time he had to work on. Relying on old themes and motifs will not be acceptable!

    We´re entering an old debate here. Using the same kind of themes and motifs is Horner´s style, so regardless of the time he had, we will get the same old stuff; Horner is just not the guy to reinvent the wheel.


    Ah, but if someone puts him in his place... Steven Zaillian did on All The Kings Men... then you can get something original out of Horner. I just can't fathom how a guy who has a year to write something would think that inserting the four note danger motif into this score is the best idea he can come up with.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
    Timmer wrote
    Aside from John Williams I can't think of any other composer I'd want the film to be scored by.


    Come on... Brad Fiedel!

    tongue

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
    Darn, how could I forget him!? face-palm-mt
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  1. Erik Woods wrote
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    That's the key right there... the amount of time he had to work on. Relying on old themes and motifs will not be acceptable!

    We´re entering an old debate here. Using the same kind of themes and motifs is Horner´s style, so regardless of the time he had, we will get the same old stuff; Horner is just not the guy to reinvent the wheel.


    Ah, but if someone puts him in his place... Steven Zaillian did on All The Kings Men... then you can get something original out of Horner. I just can't fathom how a guy who has a year to write something would think that inserting the four note danger motif into this score is the best idea he can come up with.

    -Erik-


    The four note motif DOES appear in the score actually.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorkeky
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
    PawelStroinski wrote


    The four note motif DOES appear in the score actually.



    I haven't discovered it in the sound clips. But even if it does appear, I don't mind until the tracks will be as good as they seem to be judging by those sound clips.
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009 edited
    Erik Woods wrote
    I just can't fathom how a guy who has a year to write something would think that inserting the four note danger motif into this score is the best idea he can come up with.

    It´s his signature motif. Of course it will be in there, not out of unoriginality, but because Horner´s ego is unfathomable.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
    Timmer wrote
    Aside from John Williams I can't think of any other composer I'd want the film to be scored by.


    Pretty good point.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    That's the key right there... the amount of time he had to work on. Relying on old themes and motifs will not be acceptable!

    We´re entering an old debate here. Using the same kind of themes and motifs is Horner´s style, so regardless of the time he had, we will get the same old stuff; Horner is just not the guy to reinvent the wheel.


    Ah, but if someone puts him in his place... Steven Zaillian did on All The Kings Men... then you can get something original out of Horner. I just can't fathom how a guy who has a year to write something would think that inserting the four note danger motif into this score is the best idea he can come up with.

    -Erik-


    The four note motif DOES appear in the score actually.


    I have gone beyond the point of getting annoyed it by it to the point of actually expecting it as naturally i'd expect his signature, which is what the 4-note danger motif really is imo.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    I just can't fathom how a guy who has a year to write something would think that inserting the four note danger motif into this score is the best idea he can come up with.

    It´s his signature motif. Of course it will be in there, not out of unoriginality, but because Horner´s ego is unfathomable.


    He's proven it quite a few times, his ego is at - sometime - ridiculous proportions.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009 edited
    Christodoulides wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Aside from John Williams I can't think of any other composer I'd want the film to be scored by.

    Pretty good point.

    James Newton Howard in his good mode or Hans Zimmer in his Thin Red Line mode would have been nice choices, too, but I´ve been waiting so long for a really big movie scored by Horner that I prefer it the way it is.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Aside from John Williams I can't think of any other composer I'd want the film to be scored by.

    Pretty good point.

    James Newton Howard in his good mode or Hans Zimmer in his Thin Red Line mode would have been nice choices, too, but I´ve been waiting so long for a really big movie scored by Horner that I prefer it the way it is.


    Indeed, i agree with JNH too, not too sure about Zimmer today. Maybe 5 years ago.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009 edited
    I like Zimmer regardless of his era. smile

    But on the other hand, TRL is already perfect as it is. No reason to do it again.

    JNH, then.

    It´s Williams I´m not too sure about. If he´d write some good themes, I´d be okay with it, but the way he does things right now, I´m quite certain we would get another War of the Worlds with a bit of Geisha thrown in (for the exotic soundscape); unfortunately, WotW is a great score, but unlistenable outside the movie.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
    Oh don't get me wrong, i TOO love Zimmer, but not for avatar. If he was given it these days, he'd probably write something like DA VINCI CODE for it. It's a project I soooooo wanted to hear Horner on!
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  2. Ralph Kruhm wrote
    ... but unlistenable outside the movie.


    Oh the irony. You are not going to believe what's rocking the house down here in Sydney as we speak.

    Unlistenable. Pah. Fie on those who say so. If more scores were this unlistenable, the world would be richer.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  3. Zimmer wouldn't have written Da Vinci Code for Avatar. This project would be really interesting because it features creating a world, something Zimmer always wanted to do, I think. And with a year to score? This'd be amazing!
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  4. Oh, and personally, I never want to hear the four note motif again... not unless it's a gentle love theme for flute. Either turn it on its head, or turn to another idea. TROY should have been the swansong of that idea, and even there, the laziness of it was only justified by the immediacy of the task.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    I just can't fathom how a guy who has a year to write something would think that inserting the four note danger motif into this score is the best idea he can come up with.

    It´s his signature motif. Of course it will be in there, not out of unoriginality, but because Horner´s ego is unfathomable.


    I don't think it's anything to do with ego. He just likes it. Rozsa used the same basic chord progression for every single theme he ever wrote. Michael Kamen put his little "Robin Hood rhythm" (from the start of the main theme) in every score he ever wrote after one of his friends told him it was so banal no director would ever accept it in his movie when he first wrote it (in the 70s, I think).
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
    Ah. Like Williams cascading action brass. smile Good stuff!
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Aside from John Williams I can't think of any other composer I'd want the film to be scored by.

    Pretty good point.

    James Newton Howard in his good mode or Hans Zimmer in his Thin Red Line mode would have been nice choices, too, but I´ve been waiting so long for a really big movie scored by Horner that I prefer it the way it is.


    Given the same amount of time to work on the film JNH would be a fine choice ( as would Howard Shore IMO ) but Zimmer? A big no thanks from me.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
    Zimmer? Nah. JNH and Shore? Hell yeah. Personally, I'd be as happy with those two as I am with James Horner.
  5. Erik Woods wrote
    Steven wrote


    of course it is. What did you expect? A new Cameron sci-fi film with a score by James Horner that he's had a year to work on. The hype hypes itself.



    That's the key right there... the amount of time he had to work on. Relying on old themes and motifs will not be acceptable!

    -Erik-


    I can't find my post, but I said the same thing. I basically said: he'll have over a year invested. If we hear one lift from "Casper", "Star Trek 2" (or any of his other scores) or the danger motif, this will be EPIC FAIL for Horner, basicaly putting the nail in the coffin for any future chances on doing another '80's masterpiece. We'll be stuck with basic modern Horner, which is a hit & miss sometimes, and lacking in comparrison to his monumental output just two decades ago.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
  6. Then you will be disappointed, because there is at least one utterance of the danger motif in it.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  7. Goddamnit.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
    There was never any remote possibility that this would be "another 80s masterpiece" - he has moved on. It was always just going to be a continuation of his modern sound. Personally I'd love another Krull (who wouldn't?) but if what we get is another New World, I'd be jumping for joy at that as well.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
    Blimey. I think Justin's put the nail in the coffin for him already there!

    This is Horner. We will undoubtedly hear something from a past score (as with any composer I suppose), and having had a year to work on the film means he's simply had more time to explore more ideas. It doesn't necessarily imply he will, or even should, produce something completely original. It just means he's had time to develop ideas he probably would have had had he worked on the film for a significantly less amount of time.

    We won't get another Krull. We'll get Avatar.
  8. I'm not after an 80s masterpiece myself. As long as he makes it a better film, that's all I really care about. He didn't really do that for two of his other acclaimed recent scores - ALL THE KING'S MEN (a film killer, but then the film wasn't good anyway), and NEW WORLD (which wouldn't have been a bad score, just hard to imagine it working nearly as well as the classical tracks that made the film what it was).
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  9. Also, the four note motif is just working as a prevalent counterpoint, I think. We hear it because we expect it and know the usual arrangement it will appear in (ie. definitely a trumpet solo).

    With Horner's mode of composition, reusing earlier tunes isn't something unexpected. Every composer repeats themselves - let's look only at recent action of John Williams and his repetition of not only structure, but also certain motifs here and there. It's natural. And it's not a case of time. Once on filmtracks I've been reading an analysis, where a guy says that Horner's approach to music makes him repeat so much, he is struggling to give his orchestration a classical, symphonic flow.

    Symphonic flow deals with lots of voices. If we have composer very adamant about giving that in film scores, repeating previous material isn't something unexpected. Polyphonic writing is hard and if you have to give decent polyphonic flow in a work written in 3-4 weeks or even a year in case of something being enslaved to a certain context, you can't blame for the fact that one of the voices or more of them repeats earlier material. Horner's string writing is especially evident here. Usually string parts have 5 staves, the string section is aa strng quintet - two violins, violas, celli and basses. Horner usually divides his violas to two groups (divisi - divided), which makes it 6 parts, each of them has to be unique in context of the rest of the works. So? This makes Horner give an unique melody or rhythm to each of the parts. It may tamper creativity if you have a month to do that.

    Usually, I am not a Horner defender, but the four note motif really beckons if you have to give a rhythmic/melodic flavor, or harmonic - the danger motif sounds pretty dissonant in context of the rest of the score. Also it plays a rather symbolic role.

    I have been thinking of Troy in context of Horner as a quickly working composer there. Zimmer and Horner are "great" for writing replacement scores for numerous reasons. Zimmer's "additional music" stuff aside, both composers work with patterns. Look at Troy, a main rhythmic motif of the action music is a figure using the danger motif in a rhytmic fashion (dadadadah dah dahdahah dah dahdahdah repeated ad infinitum). The string writing also features typical Horner's ascending/descending motifs. This made him pull the work off in two weeks.

    I hope I made things clear. Horner is a pattern based composer, trying to give his scores a serious and very classical sound. Concentrating on technical issues (remember that we deal with a guy who started his Hollywood career with a Ph. D. in music composition/theory!), he doesn't think of every voice to sound original. He burnt out earlier than others, due to that. Even if he repeats motifs in Avatar, the year to write that composition and the obviously good-natured collaboration with Cameron on the score is still a refreshing thing. After The Thin Red Line and Prince of Egypt, Zimmer burnt out and took 1999 basically off (writing three themes for an obscure German TV series doesn't count, he does such material in his sleep). Next year he gave us Gladiator and Mission: Impossible II. Before you ditch the latter score, don't forget that M:I-2 was a friendly band effort done for John Woo, quite often tongue-in-cheek (which reviewers tend to forget). Avatar may be a restart for Horner and I hope it will be.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
    Southall wrote
    Personally I'd love another Krull (who wouldn't?)


    Me.
    Steven wrote

    We won't get another Krull. We'll get Avatar.



    Thank God.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
    franz_conrad wrote
    I'm not after an 80s masterpiece myself. As long as he makes it a better film, that's all I really care about. He didn't really do that for two of his other acclaimed recent scores - ALL THE KING'S MEN (a film killer, but then the film wasn't good anyway), and NEW WORLD (which wouldn't have been a bad score, just hard to imagine it working nearly as well as the classical tracks that made the film what it was).


    What the film was is actually considered a good thing? wink I think THE NEW WORLD is a damn fine score and if the director actually used it in correct balance in the film, instead of butching it up and replacing it with last-minute classical pieces, it would have worked wonders, then MAYBE the film could have been elevated a bit more to try and reach TTRL.

    On AVATAR: i have huge confidence in Horner, i am not expecting and i don't want an 80's score (people, seriously, we are 20+ years past 80's, give nostalgia a break on this one) and even if it has the danger motif - which i still strongly believe is more like a strong ego signature rather than anything else, but i like it anyway - the score will be very interesting to say the least. Looking forward to it, unbiased.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.