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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
    Southall wrote
    None of those particularly reminds me of Williams (apart from the direct quotations in Lair) though - and while I didn't think Indy 4 was as good as the previous Indy scores (particularly the first two), I still think it was more impressive than any of the other scores I've mentioned in this paragraph. I guess I'm just more comfortable with Williams's modern style than you (and everyone else, apparently). I do seem to listen to his newer (last 10-15 years) scores more than the older ones.


    The Afrika and Asterix score are heavily Williams' influenced. Lair is shamelessly quoting in places.

    As for your 2nd point, i wholeheartedly agree as i too find myself in the same situation.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009 edited
    Christodoulides wrote
    I am the kind of guy who lives the day and the present to the utmost, to be honest. I rarely feel the need to feel nostalgia.


    That's a shame, because I too am the kind of guy who lives the day and the present to the utmost. I just have the added benefit of nostalgia. wink (And trust me, the magic of watching films like Back to The Future and being transported back to the wonderful childhood I had is a brilliantly fantastic feeling. And so is discovering new things too.)
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
    Erik Woods wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    The fact that those composers are trying to sound like how he sounded 20 years ago should say something about where Williams actually IS today, in comparison.


    Williams was better 20 years ago then he is today! FACT!

    BTW, who was that composer that brought back that magically romantic sound of the Golden Age for a small low budget sci-fi film in 1977? Right... seems like the same thing is happening again so I applaud those younger composers for attempting to bring back that magical sound and style that Williams for some reason, call it evolution if you'd like, has lost. And can you honestly say that Williams' evolution from Raiders... heck, from Last Crusade to Indy 4 is for the best?

    -Erik-


    Maybe not but the evolution from Heartbeeps to Memoirs of a Geisha doesn't seem too bad.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
    Southall wrote
    Maybe not but the evolution from Heartbeeps to Memoirs of a Geisha doesn't seem too bad.


    Heartbeeps is actually not bad... not bad at all... but it is a small blemish sandwich between one classic score written after another from 1977 to 1984.

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
    Steven wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    I am the kind of guy who lives the day and the present to the utmost, to be honest. I rarely feel the need to feel nostalgia.


    That's a shame, because I too am the kind of guy who lives the day and the present to the utmost. I just have the added benefit of nostalgia. wink (And trust me, the magic of watching films like Back to The Future and being transported back to the wonderful childhood I had is a brilliantly fantastic feeling. And so is discovering new things too.)


    I understand that. I might enjoy some older movies too from time to time, but generally i like to see and regard everything in context with their time, era, surroundings and culture smile
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
    Erik Woods wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    The fact that those composers are trying to sound like how he sounded 20 years ago should say something about where Williams actually IS today, in comparison.


    Williams was better 20 years ago then he is today! FACT!

    BTW, who was that composer that brought back that magically romantic sound of the Golden Age for a small low budget sci-fi film in 1977? Right... seems like the same thing is happening again so I applaud those younger composers for attempting to bring back that magical sound and style that Williams for some reason, call it evolution if you'd like, has lost. And can you honestly say that Williams' evolution from Raiders... heck, from Last Crusade to Indy 4 is for the best?

    -Erik-


    Meh, they're not doing anything new in any case, it's welcome for sure, but you can't really place them above the man who created it all and pushed film music to the next level. Let's just say it's one of those cases that the student can't surpass the teacher.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009 edited
    Steven wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    I am the kind of guy who lives the day and the present to the utmost, to be honest. I rarely feel the need to feel nostalgia.


    That's a shame, because I too am the kind of guy who lives the day and the present to the utmost. I just have the added benefit of nostalgia. wink


    Me, I tend to live my days regretting the past and fearing the future.
    What can I say? My moral and political coming-of-age was in the early eighties. Comes with the territory.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009 edited
    Christodoulides wrote
    Meh, they're not doing anything new in any case, it's welcome for sure, but you can't really place them above the man who created it all and pushed film music to the next level. Let's just say it's one of those cases that the student can't surpass the teacher.


    All I said is that they are doing John Williams styled scores better than John Williams right now at this very moment. BTW, what exactly was new about Williams' sound?!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
    More mature, darker at places, more advance compositional techniques (dissonance instead of straight, in your face leitmotifs, just to name one), richer instrumentation, richer canvas, less fanfare-y, less leitmotif-y.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  1. And I guess actually more complex rhythms, right?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
    Christodoulides wrote
    More mature, darker at places, more advance compositional techniques (dissonance instead of straight, in your face leitmotifs, just to name one), richer instrumentation, richer canvas, less fanfare-y, less leitmotif-y.


    More mature.?! What exactly does that mean... Oh, he is scoring more dramas and less fantasy. I don't see how creating darker scores makes them more mature (BTW, Close Encounters, Images, Black Sunday just to name a few are all incredibly dark and far more interesting scores than what he is working on these days.)

    Since when were straight in your face leitmotifs not as advanced compositionally. Dissonance is good, themes suck! Pffft! Creating a good, memorable themes I think is one of the goddamn hardest things a composer has to do.

    BTW, Less fanfare-y, less leitmotif-y = not as memorable!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009 edited
    More mature means more complex, with a more variecolored musical canvas but it also means restrained, balanced and metered. If you think being restrained, balanced, less in your face, or even dissonant is actually easy, then i'd be really interested to hear what the answers that composers will give you are going to be wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
    Christodoulides wrote
    More mature means more complex, with a more variecolored musical canvas but it also means restrained, balanced and metered.


    I don't agree with that. His most interesting, variecolored and most memorable scores were composed between 1977 and 1984.

    Christodoulides wrote
    If you think being restrained, balanced, less in your face, or even dissonant is actually easy, then i'd be really interested to hear what the answers that composers will give you are going to be wink


    I didn't say it was easy. I just don't think that qualifies as more mature. Experimental... yeah, I'll give you that.

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009 edited
    Christodoulides wrote
    I understand that. I might enjoy some older movies too from time to time, but generally i like to see and regard everything in context with their time, era, surroundings and culture smile


    Hmm, not quite sure what you mean by that, but okay.

    There must be something from your past, and not necessarily your childhood, that you have some sort of personal connection with? I mean, surely that's part of being human? I certainly wouldn't describe "nostalgia" as living in the past, but rather enjoying the past. My point is that we will tend to enjoy the things which are good, and forget about the things that were bad (well, in terms of films and music at least). Had I listened to Star Wars, Indiana Jones and Back To The Future for the first time today, I would still think they're very good scores. The only difference today is that I have those nostalgic feelings towards them: and effectively, nostalgia is just familiarity plus time.

    I wager that a great many of your favourite scores are ones that you've had a lot of time to become familiar with. Sure, you might enjoy them today just as much as you did when you first heard them - but rarely would we develop a personal connection with a score on our initial listens quite as much as we do if we've been listening to it for years. So nostalgia isn't this blinding force from our past that you've often eluded to, but simply a strong case of familiarity!

    I just wanted to make it clear that feelings of nostalgia aren't as bad or 'blinding' as you've often hinted to in the past. I also enjoy the discussion. wink
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      CommentAuthorTalos
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009 edited
    Erik Woods wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    The fact that those composers are trying to sound like how he sounded 20 years ago should say something about where Williams actually IS today, in comparison.


    Williams was better 20 years ago then he is today! FACT!

    BTW, who was the composer that brought back that magical romantic sound of the Golden Age for a small low budget sci-fi film in 1977? Right... seems like the same thing is happening again so I applaud those younger composers for attempting to bring back that magical sound and style that Williams for some reason, call it evolution if you'd like, has lost. And can you honestly say that Williams' evolution from Raiders... heck, from Last Crusade to Indy 4 is for the best?

    -Erik-


    I agree 100 % with Eric here.

    Indy II vs... Indy IV, give me the 'unenvolved' Williams then smile

    Same goes for Goldsmith of the early 80's vs Goldsmith of the 90's. (a few scores aside though. Scores like Total Recall are really slick streamlined advanced Goldsmith pieces of art.) Horner, same story. Krull, ST II, Brainstorm vs... most of his later work. (didn't hear Avatar yet)


    And I do believe that students can become better than the master. I just listened to Talgorn's Asterix score. Due to the nature of the movie most of the cues are too short. But there are a handful of knock out cues, hitting all the sweet spots for me. Its a incredibly warm sound/feel, multi layered, complex and just very very likeable. He has the goods. Way to go.
    www.budgethotels-hongkong.com LOWEST Hong Kong hotel rates
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
    Steven wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    I am the kind of guy who lives the day and the present to the utmost, to be honest. I rarely feel the need to feel nostalgia.


    That's a shame, because I too am the kind of guy who lives the day and the present to the utmost. I just have the added benefit of nostalgia. wink (And trust me, the magic of watching films like Back to The Future and being transported back to the wonderful childhood I had is a brilliantly fantastic feeling. And so is discovering new things too.)


    I understand completely and agree.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
    Southall wrote
    I guess I'm just more comfortable with Williams's modern style than you (and everyone else, apparently). I do seem to listen to his newer (last 10-15 years) scores more than the older ones.


    Same here.

    I have to wonder, though, what this extensive Williams discussion is doing in a James Horner thread?
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2009
    I guess Williams is more interesting at his worst than Horner at his worst. wink
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorPanthera
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2009
    Erik Woods wrote

    Williams was better 20 years ago then he is today! FACT!


    -Erik-


    OPINION!
    Although I don't really categorize film music by year, so it's all one big blur to me.
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      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2009
    Just got the score from the iTunes Store. Man, that "War" cue is bloody great! The theme carried by the horns, with the strings underneath it 7 minutes into to track. punk punk
    Cookie monster
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2009
    Panthera wrote
    Erik Woods wrote

    Williams was better 20 years ago then he is today! FACT!


    -Erik-


    OPINION!


    FACT!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2009
    Andy wrote
    Just got the score from the iTunes Store. Man, that "War" cue is bloody great! The theme carried by the horns, with the strings underneath it 7 minutes into to track. punk punk


    THE BEST PART of the whole score for me. punk
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      CommentAuthorNautilus
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2009 edited
    lp wrote
    Andy wrote
    Just got the score from the iTunes Store. Man, that "War" cue is bloody great! The theme carried by the horns, with the strings underneath it 7 minutes into to track. punk punk


    THE BEST PART of the whole score for me. punk


    Of Course, until the 4 notes danger motif ruins the track in the 7:40 mark . Until then, the track is fucking awesome !!!!
    And it's not horner in any way for good or for bad tongue (a mix of James newton Howard waterworld, David Arnold and Hans Zimmer). I really want a Horner interview about this score.... and the liner notes from james Cameron.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2009
    face-palm-mt
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2009 edited
    Nautilus wrote
    lp wrote
    Andy wrote
    Just got the score from the iTunes Store. Man, that "War" cue is bloody great! The theme carried by the horns, with the strings underneath it 7 minutes into to track. punk punk


    THE BEST PART of the whole score for me. punk


    Of Course, until the 4 notes danger motif ruins the track in the 7:40 mark . Until then, the track is fucking awesome !!!!
    And it's not horner in any way for good or for bad tongue (a mix of James newton Howard waterworld, David Arnold and Hans Zimmer). I really want a Horner interview about this score.... and the liner notes from james Cameron.


    For me, AVATAR = Awesome = 40 seconds = 74minutes - 73 minute 20seconds (of middling mediocrity) = basic mathematics
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      CommentAuthorNautilus
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2009
    I guess we need a complete vision of the whole score, because I'm sure Horner score contains much more adventure stuff, much more action stuff (wich is not the same that adventure stuff tongue ) and better devolopment of the secondary themes ( I can't hear a bad guy motif in some tracks) and a more satisfactory music for the epilogue.

    About the song, I think it's really dated. A kind of "tell me now" from King Arthur could fit much better, and even be more comercial.
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2009 edited
    Nautilus wrote
    I guess we need a complete vision of the whole score, because I'm sure Horner score contains much more adventure stuff, much more action stuff (wich is not the same that adventure stuff tongue ) and better devolopment of the secondary themes ( I can't hear a bad guy motif in some tracks) and a more satisfactory music for the epilogue.

    About the song, I think it's really dated. A kind of "tell me now" from King Arthur could fit much better, and even be more comercial.


    Agree with you there about the song. In my first (and, hopefully, my only) listen of the song, I can't hear a clear melodic anything, and that alone, is immediate failure. Then you get a hold of the idea that maybe the melodic material in the score wasn't that great in the first place. .... Sad.....

    If I ever get a chance to see the movie, perhaps, maybe, please(?), my opinion will change. Till then, I'll settle for a complete score.... tongue
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2009
    I booked my ticked for AVATAR 3D in 3 days....i really hope it's worth the 12 euros! wink Seriously, i am really looking forward to this. I also hope i'll understand the score a bit more.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorlp
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2009
    Christodoulides wrote
    I booked my ticked for AVATAR 3D in 3 days....i really hope it's worth the 12 euros! wink Seriously, i am really looking forward to this. I also hope i'll understand the score a bit more.


    Reviews seems to be very positive for this movie. If we had time, we'd go, but I'll just have to live vicariously through your review. Do tell us if you like it or not.
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      CommentAuthorFeliz
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2009
    Wait, why on earth are you guys discussing Avatar? Everybody's supposed to be arguing about Williams. Stay on topic! wink