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  1. There's a difference between giving someone a chance from time-to-time, and being lazy and giving them a poor step into Hollywood.

    When a composer brings someone in and let's them do stuff, like say the Dennis McCarthy and Alex North, it's a true talent bringing someone in to do something of value, and he learned from a master.


    Zimmer brings so many people in that the collaborative process is destroyed, other composer bring other composers in and it's not even from Zimmer at some point, and there is no time to really learn the art and craft -- especially since Zimmer lacks it.

    Case in point, a very prominent orchestrator in Hollywood told me about the scoring for "Pirates of the Caribbean 1" after Silvestri was fired:

    A bunch of compsoer were brought in and put into four groups, where they composed cues quickly, which were either liked or rejected -- forcing them to do another. This is not how you learn to score a film and develope something that used to have a name. Raksin must be spinning in his grave.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Southall wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    2) When he actually IS around, he actually delivers (with some very few exceptions). What you DO have problem with and what you fairly DO NOT LIKE are the hordes of music-less young RC composers, Zimmer is not the one you should blame. Get over it. He's probably the most influential film music figure of the last 15 years, one that has written spectacular music (numerous examples, you all know, i won't go into details) and who has attracted more people and attention to film music than probably anyone else in the genre, and even if he's done some not so good stuff in his career (haven't they all anyway?) it's unfair to see his name dragged like this.


    But Zimmer IS the one to blame, and it's impossible to get over it because crap music produced by his studio dominates blockbuster film scores these days. If we were talking only about his own scores then I wouldn't have a problem, there are some good ones, but what he has done with the composing-by-production-line model is to completely ruin film music. I can't get over that.

    If I could change one thing then I would go back in time and prevent Media Ventures from ever being set up.


    Zimmer is not responsible for what the younger composers who happen to be in the RC staff do. I don't see anyone giving him credit for the genius of Powell just for a change. Why do you give him the negative credit of all the crap that comes out of there, for once?

    "Composing-by-production-line" is a phenomenon of our days, probably more than what some of you might have realized. How is what RC composers do (in principle, NOT MUSICAL STYLE) any different than a composer hiring JAMES HORNER / CHRISTOPHER YOUNG / DANNY ELFMAN / BRIAN TYLER on the go just because he wants just another fast score by them with their distinct style?

    As for the inferior quality of some RC composers, have you ever thought that maybe it's something more general that has to do with younger composers in general which are being 'brought up' (professionally speaking) in the current Hollywood 'ethics' and trends which REQUIRE just that? Have you ever compared the upbringing (both professional environment as well as musical education) of the older generations of film composers with the today's 'fast food' status of everything hollywood, and thus (american, mostly) film music as well?
    I told you before. It's the RC SOUND you have a problem with, the specific style. The extensions of the work model out of the RC and to the entire hollywood studios' system is exaggerated imo as you'll see that many other composers outside of the RC have been doing it - in different styles yes, but under the same principles - for many years now.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Erik Woods wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Erik Woods wrote

    Bah! Pounding at the keyboard doesn't make you a good composer.



    I am sorry mate but that is silly.


    No, it's not.



    Are you SERIOUSLY telling that THE THIN RED LINE / GLADIATOR / HANNIBAL is POUNDING ON THE KEYBOARD? I don't buy that, not for a second.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Erik Woods wrote

    Bah! Pounding at the keyboard doesn't make you a good composer.



    I am sorry mate but that is silly.


    No, it's not.



    Are you SERIOUSLY telling that THE THIN RED LINE / GLADIATOR / HANNIBAL is POUNDING ON THE KEYBOARD? I don't buy that, not for a second.


    I'd say that Zimmer pounds at his keyboard while watching the movie and then hands the midi's or whatever he records onto to his orchestrator(s) and they do the bulk of the work.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    justin boggan wrote



    Zimmer brings so many people in that the collaborative process is destroyed, other composer bring other composers in and it's not even from Zimmer at some point, and there is no time to really learn the art and craft -- especially since Zimmer lacks it.

    Case in point, a very prominent orchestrator in Hollywood told me about the scoring for "Pirates of the Caribbean 1" after Silvestri was fired:

    A bunch of compsoer were brought in and put into four groups, where they composed cues quickly, which were either liked or rejected -- forcing them to do another. This is not how you learn to score a film and develope something that used to have a name. Raksin must be spinning in his grave.


    When will you people ACCEPT that many others do it as well nowadays?! Have you any idea how many people JAMES NEWTON HOWARD (for instance) uses in the last 5 years or so in many of his projects? Zimmer is the only one to properly credit everyone and that's generally accepted, i dare anyone to prove the contrary. Enough beating this dead horse already and just admit you have a problem with the said sound and stop extending the evil plague of Zimmer on EVERYTHING BAD that's currently happening to film music, like the friggin executives and studios who have actually formed the largest part of this situation have actually NO PART innit at all!
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Erik Woods wrote

    I'd say that Zimmer pounds at his keyboard while watching the movie and then hands the midi's or whatever he records onto to his orchestrator(s) and they do the bulk of the work.

    -Erik-


    Him and 65% of the rest of film music composers out there today. And you know it. Wanna speak Arnold or Mansell or anyone else for the subject matter?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAntineutrino
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008 edited
    The problem is that most RC composers wouldn't have become film composers if Hans Zimmer didn't "discover" them. I don't know if this is a good sign.
  2. Five people -- sometimes -- on rescores and late projects, but regularly, J.N.H. does not. And "5" is different from 15. And even then at least one guy is doing source music only.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
  3. Zimmer does hand his demos to his orchestrators, yes. But they don't differ much from the originals, all that's done is correcting potential arrangement mistakes (e.g. going out of instrument scale, a synth demo doesn't involve breathing...). Even his orchestrators admit it.

    What we get is what Zimmer wrote for the particular scene, but performed by an orchestra with his usual mixing extravaganza (mixing with the demo formerly, today "rock-music-like" miking). Also he does know notation - POTC 3 bootleg shows him analyzing the score as recorded and he once said he wrote a theme on Harry Gregson-Williams' wedding invitation, so he definitely does know stuff about music.

    I guess the bulk of stuff is done rather by additional composers who rearrange given themes, but that in scores that he either has little time for (Pearl Harbor, Madagascar) or doesn't care for (the same works really). For his friends he works mostly alone and then he delivers stuff like he did for Ridley Scott (OK, BHD was an improvisation) or James Brooks (As Good As It Gets or Spanglish, I'll Do Anything is not so amazing).
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    justin boggan wrote
    Five people -- sometimes -- on rescores and late projects, but regularly, J.N.H. does not. And "5" is different from 15. And even then at least one guy is doing source music only.


    The reason you see 5 and not 15 is because Zimmer is the only one who actually credits the guy who does source music only.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  4. [quote...] and he once said he wrote a theme on Harry Gregson-Williams' wedding invitation, so he definitely does know stuff about music.



    Harry should be happy Hanzi didn't write a theme for his wedding!
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    As for the DEMOS thingy, have you heard the demos for THE BATTLE cues in Gladiator? The synth mock-ups?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  5. Erik Woods wrote
    Can't afford Zimmer get Rabin

    Poor Trevor... This guy came to Media Ventures only one time in his like because of Jerry Bruckheimer, and everybody calls him "Little Zimmer"... biggrin biggrin


    Rabin's sound is... Rabin... He has his own story started by Jerry Bruckheimer, not Zimmer...


    Of course saying he has no links with RC would be a lie... Cause he knew Zimmer, he knew Mancina, he co-wrote things with Media Ventures guys such as HGW, Jablonsky or Trevor Morris...


    About the MV sound... The "ZIMMER" sound... The Zimmer clones... I do not agree... RC guys have their own career... Zimmer can't do everything for them... Go to Trevor Morris's website and listen to some samples, like Moonlight... Is it a HZ sound ? I don't think so... This guy is talented, probably the most talented RC composer at the moment...


    Listen to Jablonsky's amazing Desperate Housewives, Dooley's Pushing Daisies, Örvarsson's The Last Confederate or Zanelli's Into The West...


    There's no Zimmer's sound in all this... RC bashers, you just take the commercial examples (I know the careers and scores of every single MV/RC guy, and this is NOT only commercial things, another cliché), which are not very great actually...

    Vantage Point or Hitman (Zanelli himself said "they probably hired me because they knew I finished Secret Window in 14 days", Hitman was written in two weeks)...

    I know guys like Zanelli or Örvarsson are better than this, they proved it in the past, and I want them to prove it in the (near) future... But as I said, everybody has his own career, and if Geoff keeps saying "yes" to score bad films in a hurry, I can't do anything for him... biggrin
  6. I think Gregson-Williams would be happy to have a theme for his wedding written by Zimmer. HGW left MV, but they still are great friends.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  7. Christodoulides wrote
    justin boggan wrote
    Five people -- sometimes -- on rescores and late projects, but regularly, J.N.H. does not. And "5" is different from 15. And even then at least one guy is doing source music only.


    The reason you see 5 and not 15 is because Zimmer is the only one who actually credits the guy who does source music only.



    Oh, give me a break. Anyone can add their "Additional score" credits to IMDB; no one is stopping them. Months after the "King Kong" fiasco, a number showed up. And on the other hand they do for Zimmer as well, and so far Zimmer beats Newton.



    Your witness.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Erik Woods wrote

    I'd say that Zimmer pounds at his keyboard while watching the movie and then hands the midi's or whatever he records onto to his orchestrator(s) and they do the bulk of the work.

    -Erik-


    Him and 65% of the rest of film music composers out there today. And you know it. Wanna speak Arnold or Mansell or anyone else for the subject matter?


    I'm not going to give those two a break either. And just because 65% of the rest of film composers do it doesn't mean that it's right.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  8. Hybrid, Rabin's story was started by Mark Mancina, not Bruckheimer.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  9. If 65% of people jumped off a cliff, would you do it too D?
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    As for the DEMOS thingy, have you heard the demos for THE BATTLE cues in Gladiator? The synth mock-ups?


    I highly doubt those are the first pass that Zimemr does when he sits down to "score" the film for the first time.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008 edited
    ^ You assume.

    Justin, spare me the smartass attitude now, will ya?

    No, i wouldn't jump off the cliff but that other 65% means that Zimmer is NOT THE ONE DOING EVERYTHING THAT'S BAD like you're psyched that he is!
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  10. Spare us Zimmer. And be thankful we are having a lively debate for once.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    ^ You assume.



    I'd bet my ass that that is the finished mock up of the completely orchestrated piece to hand over to Ridley Scott for his approval before recording that exact piece with a live orchestra... that is only going to be drowned out by his synth orchestra anyway.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    I am thankful for that, otherwise i wouldn't actively participate as such. It just annoys me to see some people blindingly defending the same arguments all over and over again each time while things in the INDUSTRY indicate otherwise. I would like - for a change, not see to hear those familiar arguments again and have questions like the ones i set in http://www.maintitles.net/forum/discuss … ee/#Item_2 answered or commented instead.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    It just annoys me to see some people blindingly defending the same arguments all over and over again each time while things in the INDUSTRY indicate otherwise.


    But it's a boat load of fun watching people try to creatively defend his work.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  11. You wanted replies? Here you go.



    Zimmer is not responsible for what the younger composers who happen to be in the RC staff do.


    False. Zimmer runs the company and has final say over who gets in.

    "Composing-by-production-line" is a phenomenon of our days, probably more than what some of you might have realized. How is what RC composers do (in principle, NOT MUSICAL STYLE) any different than a composer hiring JAMES HORNER / CHRISTOPHER YOUNG / DANNY ELFMAN / BRIAN TYLER on the go just because he wants just another fast score by them with their distinct style?


    For starters, because Horner and Elfman can actually score. Take the rescore of "Praites 1" and "Mission: Impossible 1".

    As for the inferior quality of some RC composers, have you ever thought that maybe it's something more general that has to do with younger composers in general which are being 'brought up' (professionally speaking) in the current Hollywood 'ethics' and trends which REQUIRE just that? Have you ever compared the upbringing (both professional environment as well as musical education) of the older generations of film composers with the today's 'fast food' status of everything hollywood, and thus (american, mostly) film music as well?


    Zimmer started scoring films only ten years before Bruce Broughton.

    I told you before. It's the RC SOUND you have a problem with, the specific style. The extensions of the work model out of the RC and to the entire hollywood studios' system is exaggerated imo as you'll see that many other composers outside of the RC have been doing it - in different styles yes, but under the same principles - for many years now.


    They can use a real orchestra, it's the lack of ability that applies here.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Southall wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    2) When he actually IS around, he actually delivers (with some very few exceptions). What you DO have problem with and what you fairly DO NOT LIKE are the hordes of music-less young RC composers, Zimmer is not the one you should blame. Get over it. He's probably the most influential film music figure of the last 15 years, one that has written spectacular music (numerous examples, you all know, i won't go into details) and who has attracted more people and attention to film music than probably anyone else in the genre, and even if he's done some not so good stuff in his career (haven't they all anyway?) it's unfair to see his name dragged like this.


    But Zimmer IS the one to blame, and it's impossible to get over it because crap music produced by his studio dominates blockbuster film scores these days. If we were talking only about his own scores then I wouldn't have a problem, there are some good ones, but what he has done with the composing-by-production-line model is to completely ruin film music. I can't get over that.

    If I could change one thing then I would go back in time and prevent Media Ventures from ever being set up.


    Zimmer is not responsible for what the younger composers who happen to be in the RC staff do. I don't see anyone giving him credit for the genius of Powell just for a change. Why do you give him the negative credit of all the crap that comes out of there, for once?

    "Composing-by-production-line" is a phenomenon of our days, probably more than what some of you might have realized. How is what RC composers do (in principle, NOT MUSICAL STYLE) any different than a composer hiring JAMES HORNER / CHRISTOPHER YOUNG / DANNY ELFMAN / BRIAN TYLER on the go just because he wants just another fast score by them with their distinct style?

    As for the inferior quality of some RC composers, have you ever thought that maybe it's something more general that has to do with younger composers in general which are being 'brought up' (professionally speaking) in the current Hollywood 'ethics' and trends which REQUIRE just that? Have you ever compared the upbringing (both professional environment as well as musical education) of the older generations of film composers with the today's 'fast food' status of everything hollywood, and thus (american, mostly) film music as well?
    I told you before. It's the RC SOUND you have a problem with, the specific style. The extensions of the work model out of the RC and to the entire hollywood studios' system is exaggerated imo as you'll see that many other composers outside of the RC have been doing it - in different styles yes, but under the same principles - for many years now.


    I'm sorry but I completely disagree. It is impossible to compose a great score using the Remote Control model. You might get lucky some times and get one which is OK, but you're never going to get anything that digs beneath the surface of a film - in the way that all the great film scores do - when it's written by a large number of different people, in different rooms. Zimmer is entirely responsible for the sound of scores like Iron Man - he takes the assignment, he assigns the composers, he produces the score, he talks to the director and producers. Just because he isn't the one sitting in the studio on his computer "composing" doesn't mean he isn't responsible for it.

    Surely you can see the difference between hiring Remote Control to write a score and hiring Christopher Young to write it. Young will bring his unique vision to a film score - he won't always write a good one, but he will try his honest best - he won't be turning to the "score producer" for approval of everything, he will be working with the director of the film to come up with the right approach. He won't be sitting there writing a cue, having it tossed, and churning out a completely different one five minutes later. He will have a vision of the film score from start to finish, and execute that vision.

    And to give Zimmer credit for Powell... that Powell has made it might be down to Zimmer hiring him in the first place, but the guy didn't write a single noteworthy film score until he left Media Ventures and was actually able to put something personal into his music, so if he has succeeded then it's despite Hans Zimmer, not because of him.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Erik Woods wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    It just annoys me to see some people blindingly defending the same arguments all over and over again each time while things in the INDUSTRY indicate otherwise.


    But it's a boat load of fun watching people try to creatively defend his work.

    -Erik-


    It is impossible to defend Media Ventures / Remote Control. There is not a single good thing about it. Not one. It is the worst thing that has ever happened to film music.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    justin boggan wrote

    False. Zimmer runs the company and has final say over who gets in.



    But NOT over the final product. That's between the director and the composer himself. You know that.


    For starters, because Horner and Elfman can actually score. Take the rescore of "Praites 1" and "Mission: Impossible 1".


    Doesn't matter. Some directors go over to Horner to get yet another one of that Horner sound bit and same goes for Elfman and others; some other directors, producers and studios simply go to RC. No big deal.



    Zimmer started scoring films only ten years before Bruce Broughton.


    Answer completely irrelevant to TODAY'S YOUNG COMPOSERS (not Broughton, not Zimmer) scoring and working in Today's working conditions and Hollywood ethics.



    They can use a real orchestra, it's the lack of ability that applies here.


    Fair enough (in some cases but not all) but that has nothing to do with "a plague" being spread through RC.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  12. When I saw "Ice Age 2" I thought Powell had matured a little bit and the score sounded a little Bernstein-ish. Can you imagine if he had never met Zimmer and had instead been tutored by Bernstein? Would alomst make me jump for joy over what "Hancock" would sound like.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Southall wrote
    And to give Zimmer credit for Powell... that Powell has made it might be down to Zimmer hiring him in the first place, but the guy didn't write a single noteworthy film score until he left Media Ventures and was actually able to put something personal into his music, so if he has succeeded then it's despite Hans Zimmer, not because of him.


    Cough, Chicken Run, for one. And he's now again working with Zimmer. In 2008.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.