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  1. But NOT over the final product. That's between the director and the composer himself. You know that.



    No, sometimes directors are not present to give notes, and the composers are on their own.


    Today scores? Well, since you didn't define the era, D, I'll give you something to chew on:

    At the same time Zimmer was scoring episodes of "Space Rangers", Shirley Walker -- whom managed to not get tained by Zimmer despite their friendship -- was scoring episodes of "Batman: The Animated Series".
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Southall wrote

    I'm sorry but I completely disagree. It is impossible to compose a great score using the Remote Control model. You might get lucky some times and get one which is OK, but you're never going to get anything that digs beneath the surface of a film - in the way that all the great film scores do - when it's written by a large number of different people, in different rooms. Zimmer is entirely responsible for the sound of scores like Iron Man - he takes the assignment, he assigns the composers, he produces the score, he talks to the director and producers. Just because he isn't the one sitting in the studio on his computer "composing" doesn't mean he isn't responsible for it.

    Surely you can see the difference between hiring Remote Control to write a score and hiring Christopher Young to write it. Young will bring his unique vision to a film score - he won't always write a good one, but he will try his honest best - he won't be turning to the "score producer" for approval of everything, he will be working with the director of the film to come up with the right approach. He won't be sitting there writing a cue, having it tossed, and churning out a completely different one five minutes later. He will have a vision of the film score from start to finish, and execute that vision.



    Oh I'd SO love to see Chris Young *or any other Chris Young out there* actually brining in, defending and fulfilling any visions whatsoever with the Bruckheimer's of the world. And you doing the corresponding thingy with a Bruckheimer type of boss.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Southall wrote
    And to give Zimmer credit for Powell... that Powell has made it might be down to Zimmer hiring him in the first place, but the guy didn't write a single noteworthy film score until he left Media Ventures and was actually able to put something personal into his music, so if he has succeeded then it's despite Hans Zimmer, not because of him.


    Cough, Chicken Run, for one. And he's now again working with Zimmer. In 2008.


    I know, and I can't believe it. And Chicken Run isn't that noteworthy, it's only a pastiche of The Great Escape and various other scores. It's good fun - the kind of score RC/MV does best, when actually delving into the film isn't required - and I will concede that on some of the animations, it has actually worked OK.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    justin boggan wrote
    When I saw "Ice Age 2" I thought Powell had matured a little bit and the score sounded a little Bernstein-ish. Can you imagine if he had never met Zimmer and had instead been tutored by Bernstein? Would alomst make me jump for joy over what "Hancock" would sound like.

    I love imagination too.

    That's just wishing the very thing you don't want to have earlier with Hans Zimmer and his protégés. I know, I know, Bernstein is a God and all that, classically trained, .. But wishing a composer would sounds like an other one, is somehow going the same way.

    I can't really make my statement clear though, it's weird in my head.

    I also wish I could see mushrooms instead of eating them.
    Kazoo
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    justin boggan wrote
    But NOT over the final product. That's between the director and the composer himself. You know that.



    No, sometimes directors are not present to give notes, and the composers are on their own.


    Today scores? Well, since you didn't define the era, D, I'll give you something to chew on:

    At the same time Zimmer was scoring episodes of "Space Rangers", Shirley Walker -- whom managed to not get tained by Zimmer despite their friendship -- was scoring episodes of "Batman: The Animated Series".


    1992? BY TODAY I MEAN 2008 FOR GOD'S SAKE.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Southall wrote
    Surely you can see the difference between hiring Remote Control to write a score and hiring Christopher Young to write it. Young will bring his unique vision to a film score - he won't always write a good one, but he will try his honest best - he won't be turning to the "score producer" for approval of everything, he will be working with the director of the film to come up with the right approach. He won't be sitting there writing a cue, having it tossed, and churning out a completely different one five minutes later. He will have a vision of the film score from start to finish, and execute that vision.

    Oh I'd SO love to see Chris Young *or any other Chris Young out there* actually brining in, defending and fulfilling any visions whatsoever with the Bruckheimer's of the world. And you doing the corresponding thingy with a Bruckheimer type of boss.

    Or Sam Raimi. wink
    Kazoo
  2. Let's see who proteged under Bernstein:

    Bear McCreary (who everyoen is praising for his Battlestar Galactica work)

    Cynthia Milner (who did a nice score for "Three Wishes", and dropped off the face of the Earth)

    Linda Martinez (who committed suicide)

    And Bernstein himself being one of Aaron Copland.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    It's an empty argument, gents.

    It's the exact same discussion blaming Max C. Freedman and James E. Myers or Phil Medley and Bert Russell for the dumbing down of modern music.

    Sure, it's only three/four chords.
    But it has shaped the music industry. It struck, if you'll pardon the pun, a chord with the audience and it has stuck! Now arguably Zimmer has done something akin to this in film music.
    ...but it worked!
    It struck that chord with a lot of people (and not just in the industry).
    And it's pretty hard to argue against a tidal wave. For better or worse, Zimmer's legacy is here, and it is unavoidable.

    I like a lot of what Zimmer does, though I cannot for the life of me say it's all terribly clever or even virtuoso, his "Twist And Shout" approach to film music, does have me, to keep with the analogy, twisting and shouting, as he sure hits the right buttons!

    The worst thing I could say the Zimmer approach has played a part in (though maybe just a little one) is that producers and directors now place even less importance on a proper score than they did before, indeed because anyone with a keyboard can quite literally drum up something reasonably-sounding in a couple of hours.

    But that's just the way it is.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
    Erik Woods wrote
    Can't afford Zimmer get Rabin and on and on and on.

    As far as I know, Rabin NEVER worked in MV/RC.

    Erik Woods wrote
    I'm also irritated that the Zimmer sound is the new in thing now in Hollywood. Talk about lowering your standards... but should I be surprised. I'm yearning for the days of the late 70's and early 80's where the Williams sound was the "in" thing. At least then we were getting one outstanding score after another. Oh, those were the days

    -Erik-

    Yes, those were the days with half of movie music fans that we are today wink
    You may like it or not, but Zimmer is the composer that has generated more music fans ever. Not even Williams and his Star Wars / Indiana Jones (which are the ONLY scores by him a casual movie music fan can name by the way).
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
  3. I don't agree about Williams, Marselus. Jurassic Park is pretty recognizable, Harry Potter recently - Hedwig's Theme made quite a career. Jaws became possibly more of a cultural symbol than even Raiders March or Star Wars Main Theme. It would be safe to say that most of the culturally popular Williams themes are his Spielberg ones. which is pretty interesting. I guess there are non-film-score fan people who would recognize Conversation from Close Encounters and also the Flying theme made some impression on newcomers.

    To Justin. Zimmer got Walker a job. He is co-credited, because of contractual obligation (Walker's words), but he DID get Shirley Walker a job.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  4. Southall wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Southall wrote
    And to give Zimmer credit for Powell... that Powell has made it might be down to Zimmer hiring him in the first place, but the guy didn't write a single noteworthy film score until he left Media Ventures and was actually able to put something personal into his music, so if he has succeeded then it's despite Hans Zimmer, not because of him.


    Cough, Chicken Run, for one. And he's now again working with Zimmer. In 2008.


    I know, and I can't believe it. And Chicken Run isn't that noteworthy, it's only a pastiche of The Great Escape and various other scores. It's good fun - the kind of score RC/MV does best, when actually delving into the film isn't required - and I will concede that on some of the animations, it has actually worked OK.


    AntZ and Shrek too. Maybe Evolution and Bourne Identity.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    Marselus wrote
    You may like it or not, but Zimmer is the composer that has generated more music fans ever. Not even Williams and his Star Wars / Indiana Jones (which are the ONLY scores by him a casual movie music fan can name by the way).


    If you went into the street and asked a guy to whistle you the theme from Star Wars, or Superman, or Indiana Jones, or Close Encounters, or ET... and then you asked him to whistle you theme from Pirates of the Caribbean, or Gladiator, or Crimson Tide, or The Last Samurai... which ones do you think he would know? Is your statement based on any facts? If the album sales figures back it up then fair enough - I've no idea whether they do.

    Having said that, the fact that Zimmer has been influential is not in dispute. My contention is that that influence has been completely, unquestionably negative. Film music has devolved back from a higher place to a lower one, because of him.
  5. People would hum He's a Pirate and Now We Are Free. Last Samurai is too subdued to hum. Crimson Tide - maybe people in their later twenties.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008 edited
    Marselus wrote
    Yes, those were the days with half of movie music fans that we are today wink
    You may like it or not, but Zimmer is the composer that has generated more music fans ever. Not even Williams and his Star Wars / Indiana Jones (which are the ONLY scores by him a casual movie music fan can name by the way).


    And these "facts" are based on what information?

    Anyway, may I repeat the following... talk about lowering your standards.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  6. Southall wrote

    If I could change one thing then I would go back in time and prevent Media Ventures from ever being set up.


    Really? I'd go back and become a majority shareholder in it! wink (The dumbing down of music should if nothing else deliver a good return.)
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    PawelStroinski wrote
    People would hum He's a Pirate and Now We Are Free. Last Samurai is too subdued to hum. Crimson Tide - maybe people in their later twenties.


    Maybe I'm too old, I know nobody who could hum a single Zimmer tune?
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    Jordi, just a quick caveat: Timmer's post ISN'T an invitation to go "nanananana tink tink ya ya" all over the place again!
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    PawelStroinski wrote
    People would hum He's a Pirate and Now We Are Free. Last Samurai is too subdued to hum. Crimson Tide - maybe people in their later twenties.


    Even I couldn't hum Now We Are Free and I've heard it a million times.
  7. I'll grant that gladiators main action melody is hummable, as I know I did coming out of the cinema and that was before I was a film music fan, but anything else....Nah.
    If in doubt, let the wookie win
  8. Southall wrote
    It is impossible to defend Media Ventures / Remote Control. There is not a single good thing about it. Not one. It is the worst thing that has ever happened to film music.

    There's only one thing I can add...


    Don't listen to them... wave
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    Hybrid Soldier wrote
    Southall wrote
    It is impossible to defend Media Ventures / Remote Control. There is not a single good thing about it. Not one. It is the worst thing that has ever happened to film music.

    There's only one thing I can add...


    Don't listen to them... wave

    Amen to that beer
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    I had 62 to read thismorning!!

    Hybrid Soldier wrote
    Hey Ant, "Sampled anything" ! LOL ! You told me there were no difference between a synth and an orchestral track few days ago... sleep cool


    Incorrect. You sent me a Harry Gregson Williams demo, and a Harry Gregson Williams live recording. They both sounded like synths.

    Also, if Rabin sounds like Rabin, why does he sound like Media Ventures?

    Southall wrote

    And to give Zimmer credit for Powell...

    ... the guy didn't write a single noteworthy film score until he left Media Ventures and was actually able to put something personal into his music, so if he has succeeded then it's despite Hans Zimmer, not because of him.


    Don’t start.

    Marselus wrote
    You may like it or not, but Zimmer is the composer that has generated more music fans ever. Not even Williams and his Star Wars / Indiana Jones (which are the ONLY scores by him a casual movie music fan can name by the way).


    And Gladiator, Hannibal and Pirates aren't the only Zimmer scores people can name?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    Anthony wrote
    And Gladiator, Hannibal and Pirates aren't the only Zimmer scores people can name?

    Maybe, but with 30 years less of career wink
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
  9. Lion King also, I guess. Possibly Driving Miss Daisy. And yes, I'm serious, that piece is often parodied.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorNautilus
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008 edited
    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....Boring

    After more of 10 years in the movie music world, after several times with score wich has revolutioned the film music industry, after compositions like Backdraft, The Thin Red Line, Prince of Egyp, As good as it gets, The Da Vinci Code, At world's End, The Last Samurai, Hannibal, House of Spirits, Radio Flyer, Beyond Rangoon....

    Zimmer doesn't need to be again the center of all this criticism

    He has proved his talent, his genius and he is one of the most important composers in the film music (for Good...For Good! )

    You can't like him or not, anyway.

    ( the facto producers hires Composers like Djdadadi or Zanelli is not Zimmer's fault, it's his own lack of taste. Do you think Zimmer likes Iron Man? I don't. In fact You know Why Thunderbirds it's more decent....Zimmer was there! )
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    One word you said in that which I don't agree on at all. ''Revolutionised'' (well, revolutioned technically). Fear my disagreement! tongue

    Nautilus wrote

    You can't like him or not, anyway.


    Indeed, I cannot like him. wink
    •  
      CommentAuthorNautilus
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008 edited
    Anthony wrote

    Indeed, I cannot like him. wink


    It's a matter of Powellism....Powell has the good things from Zimmer but without his mistakes!

    So why you, a powell fan, can enjoy listening sometimes a weakest version of powell?

    I understand you.

    Anyway call me when powell does something like The Da Vinci Code. Everybody has his space (well, Not Ramin :P )

    I don't want turn this into A figh, Because I love powell, But Did you notice powell is becoming too Over Orchestrated composer? Zimmer has survived to more than 10 years of compositions...
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    Marselus wrote
    Anthony wrote
    And Gladiator, Hannibal and Pirates aren't the only Zimmer scores people can name?

    Maybe, but with 30 years less of career wink


    I wanted to refrain from this thread any more since I've said all I can... but you really, truly, honestly think that anyone in the world apart from the few people on messageboards like this one would know that HAns Zimmer wrote the music for Hannibal, but would not know that John Williams wrote the music for ET?
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    Quite frankly, I never want Powell to write anything like The Da Vinci Code. Leave that type of music to Zimmer, and leave Powell to his own devices (although he really does need to do something new).
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008
    Southall wrote
    Marselus wrote
    Anthony wrote
    And Gladiator, Hannibal and Pirates aren't the only Zimmer scores people can name?

    Maybe, but with 30 years less of career wink


    I wanted to refrain from this thread any more since I've said all I can... but you really, truly, honestly think that anyone in the world apart from the few people on messageboards like this one would know that HAns Zimmer wrote the music for Hannibal, but would not know that John Williams wrote the music for ET?


    Hmm maybe. But my parents know John Williams scored ET, but I'm not even sure they've heard of Hanibal. dizzy