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The Dark Knight - Hans Zimmer & James Newton Howard
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- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
As for the interview extract above, i must say i find more essence than what other people seem to do in what they say about minimally approaching the character in terms of music; it doesn't necessarily mean that a jolly Elfman-like tune would fit the much more darker and serious in tone, up-to-date vision of Nolan for Batman and that's where the point is with his Batman movies, imo. Granted that the first score fitted the movie like a glove and elevated its mood, i don't see how this approach wouldn't work for the 2nd one as well.
What bothers certain people, imo, is not the musical approach per se, rather than somebody is messing with "their Batman" in specific.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
But really, say what?
Probably Nolan really believes in the strength of the writing and acting, which are one of the best elements of his films from what I've seen. Of course, Batman CAN have a great and complex theme, but mind you. This Batman is NOWHERE close to Burton's style, so Elfman's theme *would* have made the whole realistic style completely ridiculous, all due respect to the scores.
Nolan is clearly a lover of ambient, which means music doesn't *say* anything - it helps building the atmosphere, so in that matter - the storytelling. Let's not forget that. It is to make the film as dark as it is (didn't see it, purely theorizing there). We still have the Harvey Dent theme and the Joker thing, so that will have to be observed.
Erik, Nolan didn't set out to make a comic book movie. He aimed for a realistic psychological thriller. This warrants ambient. It's nothing like, say, Superman or, indeed, Batman. In some ways it's closer to stuff like, say, Psycho. Nobody notices that Batman Begins was really a movie about fear and overcoming it - see the reasoning of picking the bat as the logo, the place where Bruce was found by his father and the circumstances, the method of building suspense. And the choice of villain. It wasn't about a guy in cape saving people. THIS warrants more atmospheric scoring. Even with action scenes.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
Christodoulides wrote
As for the interview extract above, i must say i find more essence than what other people seem to do in what they say about minimally approaching the character in terms of music; it doesn't necessarily mean that a jolly Elfman-like tune would fit the much more darker and serious in tone, up-to-date vision of Nolan for Batman and that's where the point is with his Batman movies, imo. Granted that the first score fitted the movie like a glove and elevated its mood, i don't see how this approach wouldn't work for the 2nd one as well.
What bothers certain people, imo, is not the musical approach per se, rather than somebody is messing with "their Batman" in specific.
Maybe with some people, but surely few people expect an Elfman-like theme for this. Just something that is actually saying something and adding to the film, instead of something doing everything it can to stay out of the way (but not brave enough to go without music). -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008 edited
PawelStroinski wrote
But really, say what?
Probably Nolan really believes in the strength of the writing and acting, which are one of the best elements of his films from what I've seen. Of course, Batman CAN have a great and complex theme, but mind you. This Batman is NOWHERE close to Burton's style, so Elfman's theme *would* have made the whole realistic style completely ridiculous, all due respect to the scores.
Nolan is clearly a lover of ambient, which means music doesn't *say* anything - it helps building the atmosphere, so in that matter - the storytelling. Let's not forget that. It is to make the film as dark as it is (didn't see it, purely theorizing there). We still have the Harvey Dent theme and the Joker thing, so that will have to be observed.
Erik, Nolan didn't set out to make a comic book movie. He aimed for a realistic psychological thriller. This warrants ambient. It's nothing like, say, Superman or, indeed, Batman. In some ways it's closer to stuff like, say, Psycho. Nobody notices that Batman Begins was really a movie about fear and overcoming it - see the reasoning of picking the bat as the logo, the place where Bruce was found by his father and the circumstances, the method of building suspense. And the choice of villain. It wasn't about a guy in cape saving people. THIS warrants more atmospheric scoring. Even with action scenes.
Yeap. All that is Nolan's vision for BATMAN, which i find rather not ridiculous, unlike some of the previous installments.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorAnthony
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
Batman may not need a full out theme, but why does that mean what we do get has to be 2 notes?! -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
Southall wrote
Christodoulides wrote
As for the interview extract above, i must say i find more essence than what other people seem to do in what they say about minimally approaching the character in terms of music; it doesn't necessarily mean that a jolly Elfman-like tune would fit the much more darker and serious in tone, up-to-date vision of Nolan for Batman and that's where the point is with his Batman movies, imo. Granted that the first score fitted the movie like a glove and elevated its mood, i don't see how this approach wouldn't work for the 2nd one as well.
What bothers certain people, imo, is not the musical approach per se, rather than somebody is messing with "their Batman" in specific.
Maybe with some people, but surely few people expect an Elfman-like theme for this. Just something that is actually saying something and adding to the film, instead of something doing everything it can to stay out of the way (but not brave enough to go without music).
Mate, the problem some people have with the new Batman's score is much deeper than just the 2-note motif and the relevant lack of a proper Batman theme. Do you really believe that even if it DID have such a theme, composed by Zimmer, people would instantly start loving the whole thingy?Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
Christodoulides wrote
Southall wrote
Christodoulides wrote
As for the interview extract above, i must say i find more essence than what other people seem to do in what they say about minimally approaching the character in terms of music; it doesn't necessarily mean that a jolly Elfman-like tune would fit the much more darker and serious in tone, up-to-date vision of Nolan for Batman and that's where the point is with his Batman movies, imo. Granted that the first score fitted the movie like a glove and elevated its mood, i don't see how this approach wouldn't work for the 2nd one as well.
What bothers certain people, imo, is not the musical approach per se, rather than somebody is messing with "their Batman" in specific.
Maybe with some people, but surely few people expect an Elfman-like theme for this. Just something that is actually saying something and adding to the film, instead of something doing everything it can to stay out of the way (but not brave enough to go without music).
Mate, the problem some people have with the new Batman's score is much deeper than just the 2-note motif and the relevant lack of a proper Batman theme. Do you really believe that even if it DID have such a theme, composed by Zimmer, people would instantly start loving the whole thingy?
I really don't get this "people don't like it just because it's by Zimmer" business. People don't like it because it is absolutely awful. I often praise Zimmer when he does good things but seriously, Batman Begins is not a good thing. His staunchest "Hans roolz!" fans love it, but don't assume that everyone who thinks it's rubbish do so just because it's got his name on it. Anyone who wrote such a load of rubbish would get criticism for it. It's just the most pointless film music there can be - music that deliberately sets out to say nothing. What's the point? You may as well leave the thing unscored if you're going to do that.
It's not like it's some great big challenge that has never been attempted before, to write music for a darker film which actually is music and isn't just ambient drone. It can be done, and has been done, hundreds of times. I don't think the music for Batman Begins should have sounded like Elfman's Batman, but there are so many ways that film could have been scored more satisfyingly and made it an even better film. -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
James, I get your points and mind you - while i do enjoy it under certain moods, i am not the score's biggest fan but can you honestly propose that the fact that Zimmer is behind all this and especially combined with the fact that JNH appears (Both musically but also in interviews) to just follow the big man like a school boy, doesn't negatively influence and bias people?Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008 edited
Zimmer creates strong feelings for obvious reasons, but there is some well-reasoned debate (on both sides) too. One of the most frustrating things about him (and JNH) is that they are capable of a lot but sometimes sound like they just can't be bothered to put any effort in. I always feel guilty about slating someone like John Ottman, because even though he is probably the most talentless person ever to forge a career in film music, you can tell that he always tries his best; so when I hear two genuine A-list composers writing so far within themselves, it just makes me boil over! -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
(Heh, at last a voice of reason about John Ottman i am totally in agreement with!
)
I get your points and with several, i agree. What i am saying is that the whole subject got a whole bigger than what it really is in essence, due to the Zimmer doing it and JNH being dragged along thingy. I am almost positive that had it been 2 other composers, the fuzz would be infant in comparison and several people might have then realized that the score isn't actually SO bad.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthordgoldwas
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
Erik Woods wrote
Comic book films DO!
Says who? That's just an opinion.I consider a project a success when Thor says he won't buy it -
- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008 edited
dgoldwas wrote
Erik Woods wrote
Comic book films DO!
Says who? That's just an opinion.
Oh please! Just look at the vast majority of comic book films. Most of theme have great themes or at least some sort of thematic material. Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, The Phantom, The Shadow, Fantastic Four, The Punisher, Hellboy, The Flash, X-Men, etc, etc, etc.
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS! -
- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
PawelStroinski wrote
This Batman is NOWHERE close to Burton's style, so Elfman's theme *would* have made the whole realistic style completely ridiculous, all due respect to the scores.
No. Elfman's theme even Goldenthal's theme would have worked. Both are very dark and gothic which would fit perfectly with Nolan' vision.
PawelStroinski wrote
Erik, Nolan didn't set out to make a comic book movie. He aimed for a realistic psychological thriller.
Oh my God. It's man dressed in a Batman suit fighting crime. Yes, there is more to that but it still is a comic book film. A serious one at that but it's still a comic book film!
PawelStroinski wrote
THIS warrants more atmospheric scoring. Even with action scenes.
Again, more praise for the dumbing down of the orchestral film score.
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS! -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
Well, I don't.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008 edited
No. Elfman's theme even Goldenthal's theme would have worked. Both are very dark and gothic which would fit perfectly with Nolan' vision.
I don't think it would fit. They are very dark and gothic, but there is a tongue-in-cheek approach to them (Goldenthal didn't take Batman too seriously due to Schumacher's more campy vision and Elfman just loves his quirkiness) that doesn't fit the honest seriousness of Nolan's film.
Oh my God. It's man dressed in a Batman suit fighting crime. Yes, there is more to that but it still is a comic book film. A serious one at that but it's still a comic book film!
To me it's a film about a very disturbed character who decides to wear a Batman suit to fight crime also to fight his own complexes. The source is not important, we have to look at the story at hand and it is a psychological thriller rather than straight-out action film. Scarecrow scenes were scored brilliantly, even if Artibeus is an abomination on album.
PawelStroinski wrote
THIS warrants more atmospheric scoring. Even with action scenes.
Again, more praise for the dumbing down of the orchestral film score.
Well, electronics DO have their advantage especially in building atmosphere. Of course pity Zimmer didn't expand his avant-garde ideas (see Black Hawk Down and Tears of the Sun) more, but still the problem is that want it or not, the approach fits. ANd doesn't work as a sonic wallpaper, rather as a hue.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008 edited
PawelStroinski wrote
I don't think it would fit. They are very dark and gothic, but there is a tongue-in-cheek approach to them (Goldenthal didn't take Batman too seriously due to Schumacher's more campy vision and Elfman just loves his quirkiness) that doesn't fit the honest seriousness of Nolan's film.
They would have fit. And I think you have to have a bit of camp and excitement in your music especially for a Batman film. Again, man dressed in bat suite fighting crime. It's FUN to watch this stuff so it would have been great to hear a bit of that in the music. Make the action scenes even more exciting instead of just having the droning uninteresting garbage we now have underneath the Batmobile chase. There is no emotion to it. It's filler. Why is it even there?
-Erik-
PS - I'm going to take that Batmobile chase and see if i can time some of Elfman's music to it. Seems like an interesting challenge.host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!- CommentAuthorcyasick
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
you can get a few samples from the new soundtrack here...
http://www.warnerbrosrecords.com/thedarkknight/- CommentAuthorMatt C
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008 edited
Southall wrote
I always feel guilty about slating someone like John Ottman, because even though he is probably the most talentless person ever to forge a career in film music, you can tell that he always tries his best; so when I hear two genuine A-list composers writing so far within themselves, it just makes me boil over!
Say WHAT?! At least Ottman knows how to write some good melodies... his psychological thriller scores are far more interesting than Disturbia or Vantage Point.
Erik, I don't think you could time any of Elfman's music to any of the action scenes from BB and make it work well. Elfman's Batman score is brilliant but in tone, it's far too bright for Nolan's realistic tone for BB and TDK. But Goldenthal and Walker's Batman music could definitely be timed to the Tumbler chase... one person edited a TDK trailer using "Main Titles" from Batman: Mask of the Phantasm and the music fit it like a glove.http://unsungfilmscores.blogspot.com/ -- My film/TV/game score review blog- CommentAuthorLSH
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
Zimmer and Howard to Perform at Dark Knight Premiere
http://www.superherohype.com/news/batma … hp?id=7433- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
Matt C wrote
Erik, I don't think you could time any of Elfman's music to any of the action scenes from BB and make it work well. Elfman's Batman score is brilliant but in tone, it's far too bright for Nolan's realistic tone for BB and TDK. But Goldenthal and Walker's Batman music could definitely be timed to the Tumbler chase... one person edited a TDK trailer using "Main Titles" from Batman: Mask of the Phantasm and the music fit it like a glove.
I'll see what I can do. I might combine two or three cues together to match the on screen action.
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!- CommentAuthordgoldwas
- CommentTimeJul 2nd 2008
Erik Woods wrote
Oh please! Just look at the vast majority of comic book films. Most of theme have great themes or at least some sort of thematic material. Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, The Phantom, The Shadow, Fantastic Four, The Punisher, Hellboy, The Flash, X-Men, etc, etc, etc.
Yes, I'm aware that most comic book films have thematic scores. That hardly means that they all NEED one. And if a comic book movie doesn't have a thematic score - and yet the score STILL WORKS FOR THE FILM - then where's the crime? That was my point.I consider a project a success when Thor says he won't buy it- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
Erik Woods wrote
PawelStroinski wrote
I don't think it would fit. They are very dark and gothic, but there is a tongue-in-cheek approach to them (Goldenthal didn't take Batman too seriously due to Schumacher's more campy vision and Elfman just loves his quirkiness) that doesn't fit the honest seriousness of Nolan's film.
They would have fit. And I think you have to have a bit of camp and excitement in your music especially for a Batman film. Again, man dressed in bat suite fighting crime. It's FUN to watch this stuff so it would have been great to hear a bit of that in the music. Make the action scenes even more exciting instead of just having the droning uninteresting garbage we now have underneath the Batmobile chase. There is no emotion to it. It's filler. Why is it even there?
-Erik-
PS - I'm going to take that Batmobile chase and see if i can time some of Elfman's music to it. Seems like an interesting challenge.
If I would pick a Goldenthal score for Nolan's film I'd rather go with something like Final Fantasy than his Batman scores.
When it comes to camp and excitement... Nolan threw away the camp factor complelely. Excitement, well a darker twist on The Rock formula was supposed to give that and it DID work well to me. Though maybe not as well as the first fight with Watanabe's men. The thing is that a complete reinvention of the franchise ended up with a complete reinvention of the musical language. It's not Batman as we know him. The thing is whether we want to know the Batman as Nolan presented it. I mean, it's a fascinating character, but much more disturbed than whatever Burton (whose films I love) or Schumacher tried to give us. Why? Because Nolan is as far from comic book movie as you can get. Knowing Nolan's preference for ambient, what we've got IS somewhat thematic.
Don't go on about the two-note motif. It's not FOR Batman. I associate it more with the landscape of Gotham. And it worked wonders in Tibetan scenes.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
dgoldwas wrote
Erik Woods wrote
Oh please! Just look at the vast majority of comic book films. Most of theme have great themes or at least some sort of thematic material. Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, The Phantom, The Shadow, Fantastic Four, The Punisher, Hellboy, The Flash, X-Men, etc, etc, etc.
Yes, I'm aware that most comic book films have thematic scores. That hardly means that they all NEED one. And if a comic book movie doesn't have a thematic score - and yet the score STILL WORKS FOR THE FILM - then where's the crime? That was my point.
Probably murdering film music as we know it.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
PawelStroinski wrote
And it worked wonders in Tibetan scenes.
Those were really impressive indeed, combined with the awe-inspiring landscape.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
dgoldwas wrote
Erik Woods wrote
Oh please! Just look at the vast majority of comic book films. Most of theme have great themes or at least some sort of thematic material. Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, The Phantom, The Shadow, Fantastic Four, The Punisher, Hellboy, The Flash, X-Men, etc, etc, etc.
Yes, I'm aware that most comic book films have thematic scores. That hardly means that they all NEED one. And if a comic book movie doesn't have a thematic score - and yet the score STILL WORKS FOR THE FILM - then where's the crime? That was my point.
True, they don't NEED one, but when they HAVE one they work far better than anything in Batman Begins.
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
PawelStroinski wrote
Don't go on about the two-note motif. It's not FOR Batman. I associate it more with the landscape of Gotham. And it worked wonders in Tibetan scenes.
So Gotham's theme works when it's not playing over top a scene of Gotham itself rather a landscape of a totally unrelated place. Well done Zimmer. Well done!
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
Erik, you didn't even like the final long chase / action cue over the train fight sequence? That worked Wonders in the film.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008 edited
Erik Woods wrote:
IMHO, this is utter nonsense. They are over analyzing it.
I think that is the main problem today. So much is over analysed. Is it my simple brain but do films like Begins or now Dark Knight really have that much second layers or complicated philosophical detail? Is it me or are they just doing that because it is just directed by Nolan, who in an other world, really does these types of movies? It's like Batman is one of the most complicated characters of all time, I just can't feel that. To me it's an intelligent blockbuster, which offers more tought than usual, but it's far from what everyone seems to analyse out of it. Even comedies these days are promoted like there heavy influential, philosophical works or art. I hate it.
And wooow, like over 70 posts!?Kazoo- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008 edited
Christodoulides wrote
Erik, you didn't even like the final long chase / action cue over the train fight sequence? That worked Wonders in the film.
Nope. It all failed! Doesn't even come close to the awesomeness of Attack of the Batwing!
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008 edited
Bregt wrote
IMHO, this is utter nonsense. They are over analyzing it.
I think that is the main problem today. So much is over analysed. Is it my simple brain but do films like Begins or now Dark Knight really have that much second layers or complicated philosophical detail? Is it me or are they just doing that because it is just directed by Nolan, who in an other world, really does these types of movies? It's like Batman is one of the most complicated characters of all time, I just can't feel that. To me it's an intelligent blockbuster, which offers more tought than usual, but it's far from what everyone seems to analyse out of it. Even comedies these days are promoted like there heavy influential, philosophical works or art. I hate it.
Didn't you know? Intellectualism and high-spiritualism is the new Hare Krishna; or the new Scientology Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.