As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware)

Awesomeness.

Absolutely right. Science deals with the tangible world, whereas God is intangible. I am no religious philosopher, but that's all I know

If you call that ignorance, I don't know what is knowledge. Sorry, I'm not heading for a religious debate Can't change your religious views, can't change mine...

What you mentioned is academic knowledge. Believing in God or not is your choice, but you cannot deny that there's karma in the world. That's values, without which, I believe, academic knowledge is useless. Don't get me wrong, academic education is the MOST important part, but without use of good values it is weak. It is like deciding whether you want to use your scientific brain to develop a atom bomb or a live saving medicine. Religion teaches you that, academic education doesn't. I am a Hindu, and we believe the maintainer or operator of karma, or rather the force of karma, as God. If you say there's no karma, I don't know what you're talking about.



Say what you will, but true religion is more concerned with the art of living rather than pouring your blood on an idol as ritual. I agree that things like the later are, in my opinion, baseless and unacceptable (they mainly stemmed in the medieval ages) but the stories which are taught in religions, real or not, are to encourage people to live a life of values and not of evil. And since I believe in karma, I believe in God also.



Except all those expensive rituals, which I've already told you about, may I know what's exactly "unreasonable" and "unlogical" about religion? Is the fact that religion tells us to live a life freed of sins unreasonable? Is the fact that reason tells us that as we sow, so we reap unlogical? Is the fact that religion tells us to watch over our deeds because the omnipresent (I will call Him karma personified) is watching over us unreasonable? Have you heard of Newton's Third Law of Motion? That is not just a physical law, we believe it is very much a spiritual law. I have seen a healthy, vain and filthy rich man who troubled my Dad and his colleagues a few years ago nearly to tears, choke on a cup of tea and die on the spot. I know a friend who was troubled by some relatives very badly, and those people eventually died naked on the streets because someone claimed their property. It is called tit for tat. I have seen a person who was as poor as you can imagine, but he had a great heart and he served people even at his own expense. He even returned us our 1000 rupees which had accidentally fallen on the ground. Eventually his crops flourished and now he leads a normal, pretty well off life.

I call this personification of justice God, and I respect Him and worship Him. If it's still unreasonable and unlogical, I'm sorry.

I'd like to point out an interesting fact here - in Hinduism there is also mentioned a great flood God caused to liberate Earth of sinners. God instructed Manu (we call him the first man, equivalent to Noah in Christianity) to collect his animals and family and build a huge boat, in advance. Then when the flood came, the Lord took the form of a giant fish ("Matsya") and helped the boat through to a safe piece of land when the catastrophe subsided.

And this piece of literature dates years back when India hadn't even been discovered by the West! Some scholars believe that these tales could have genuine origins and could be evidence. I don't know, but that's just what I read in the newspaper a few years back.

No, it's the Srimad Bhagvatam, which chronicles the life of Lord Krishna and the ten incarnations of Lord Vishnu (Matsya is his first).

Yeah, it's very entertaining reading

If you want to read, here's the English translation - http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/

Knowledge is knowledge whether you wish to call it academic knowledge or not. I also don't agree at all that religion is the only thing that can teach us values and morals. It's simply one of the first and worst attempts at it. Through academic education, I think modern, more healthier morals and values can actually be learned, particularly through sociology and philosophy. Most humans know wrong from right, the Bible just tells them not to act on the wrong... I can figure that out for myself. And so could a lot of people if they were brought up to think for themselves without preconceived notions of hugely unfounded religious assumptions.



But again, there are other stories out there which could be told to teach us about the moralities of life without resorting to believing in the absurd, which a lot of people do whether you profess to be a religious moderate or not. This is the point I'm getting at here.



Perspective. Significance of events can be found in almost anything depending on your perspective. If God had the capability and indeed compassion to perform such acts of justice upon the those who dabble in injustice, then why allow it to happen in the first place? Why allow anything bad to happen? What about the RUF "freedom fighters" that needlessly murder entire villages? Why does karma not intervene here? Is this to say your Father and his colleagues are of more importance to God than those children slain by groups such as the RUF? It's all a matter of perspective. Again, I think it's always a good idea to look at a more logical side in cases like this. Then again, who knows, you may indeed be right.

So how have Physics, Chemistry, Biology or Maths helped you gain values? I'm really interested to know.

And sociology and philosophy are value sciences, more inclined toward the religious side as far as I have seen.



Ever heard of "free will"? We have a special ability known as FREE WILL, which means that we can freely do what we wish, or more accurately what they think is right. God will not stop you doing something. God did not stop my Dad and his colleagues from suffering from the Boss, nor did he stop the Boss at that time. But the Boss eventually reaped his punishment. God is not stopping RUFs and terrorists from massacring because they have free will too. They will reap their punishment one day when they have crossed the line, because they misused their free will. That is not for us to decide. It is believed everyone is given a chance to atone when they do a crime, and if they don't and continue doing, they will pay.

As for why innocents suffer, it is believed that they're punishment for previous sins, perhaps from "previous lives". Again that depends upon YOUR perspective of thinking, but I recently I read some interesting scientific research about the previous life thing. I'll say it here if you want.

You might call it my perspective, but personally many feel, not just me, that it is more or less a solid hypothesis, if not a theory.

Hindu

Basically it's the *only* work of his I've read, but it's very good and shows how complicated everything is - Fear and Trembling. There Kierkegaard takes one Biblical excerpt to show what faith is.

I think everyone has behaved well in this thread, as I said at the beginning this isn't the type of forum where individuals will resort to name calling. Though I do feel William has yet to argue his case for religion in a particularly intelligible matter as yet, though no offense intended. As far as me being direct goes? Well, no point in pussy footing around issues that do not need pussy footing around.

I agree. I'm just glad this discussion hasn't torn the whole forum apart.

Yes, I have.

LOL



Totally agreed!