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  1. Religion classes in Poland aren't "religious studies", they are basically Catholicism lessons, often taught by local parish priests.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    plindboe wrote
    Is Islam better then? Imagine that about 50% of schools in your country have Muslims working full-time as school counsellors, who will inspire and influence the decisions kids make and will instil their beliefs and talk to them about private issues and they'll regularly arrange field trips to mosques to instil their religious values and beliefs into kids. Sure, parents can decline the field trips (they have no control over the counselling though), but many parents won't really bother declining or they'll let the kids attend so they won't feel left out. To be comparable to the Australian situation there would be no or few alternatives.


    I think that's another rather farfetched hypothesis. Societies will always be arranged around the nation's state religion in some form or fashion, and then exceptions are formed based on that -- to accomodate everyone (at least in the free world).

    It's very relevant that you try to step outside of your own head for a moment and try to see the situation as a non-Christian, because the point under discussion is whether this guy has a valid reason to feel concerned. And for the 377th time, this isn't just about a single permission slip. (I've bolded this sentence in the hope that you might read it this time)


    I read it perfectly the first time, and I disagree with your assessment. I think this is indeed about a single permission slip. Nothing more, nothing less. The parent in this case simply used it as a springboard for a little 'trolling' against a religion he doesn't share.

    I never said there was a conspiracy. Christians are open about their agenda, and they openly propagandize and indoctrinate.


    That's your assessment. I do not share it.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Religion classes in Poland aren't "religious studies", they are basically Catholicism lessons, often taught by local parish priests.


    So Polish kids are never at any point taught about buddhism, taoism, hinduism, Islam and other religions?
    I am extremely serious.
  2. No, not really.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    Wow.
    I am extremely serious.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    popcorn <--wanna share some D? biggrin
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    Fucking hell! Well why they should teach bloody (literally) Islam to anyone?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  3. Because in terms of things like terrorism, contrary to popular opinion, Islam at its beginnings was quite mild and benign and even held huge (doctrinal!) respect for Judaism and Christianity as the "people of the Book", even to the point of giving legal alleviations to these religions (free of taxation that "pagan" people were given and so on).

    While it is understandable from a modern viewpoint, we have to understand the achievements of Islam in its early years and those achievements are crucial to European development, even. Philosophers like Plato or Aristotle were literally saved by the Arabs (not just in terms of reception, they kept and saved the manuscripts) and Islamic countries were, up to at the earliest the Seljuk invasion and at the latest the crusades, the beacon of civilization when it comes at least to cultures Europe had contacts with. The radicalization of Islam is a relatively late event, so yeah... it's easy to judge. But to the benefit of ours and peace, we have to remember what was happening in Middle Ages. And wonder how to bring a civilization boost to the region.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    Demetris wrote
    Fucking hell! Well why they should teach bloody (literally) Islam to anyone?


    The fault is usually never in the religion itself, but in the people who interpret it to the extreme -- whether Christians or Muslims or whatever.

    Learning about ALL the religions in the world is a good thing and helps promote tolerance and solidarity. I'm shocked this is not done in Poland, for example.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    Demetris wrote
    Fucking hell! Well why they should teach bloody (literally) Islam to anyone?


    They should teach about all religions (within reason). It's a good thing, particularly learning about the three most popular religions of the world. The more information people have about the various faiths, the better equipped they will be to make informed choices. Religious education is extremely important!
  4. It is. Not just to make informed choices, but to get a better understanding of culture, speaking generally.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    Let me see them teaching JIHAD, a fundamental part of the Quran and Islam in general. I was tought at the uni (i selected it as an extra lesson to help me understand why these people do what they do and boy it is the most fucked up thing ever)
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    Demetris wrote
    Let me see them teaching JIHAD, a fundamental part of the Quran and Islam in general. I was tought at the uni (i selected it as an extra lesson to help me understand why these people do what they do and boy it is the most fucked up thing ever)


    Teaching what 'jihad' is, is -- or should be -- a crucial part of any religion or civics class. It is, however, not representative of the religion or most Muslims.

    I think it is wrong to judge an entire religion and its practitioners based on certain extremist groups.
    I am extremely serious.
  5. Not to mention that jihad is SPECIFICALLY called DEFENSIVE war in the book itself...
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    Thor wrote

    I think it is wrong to judge an entire religion and its practitioners based on certain extremist groups.


    True, but then again most thoughtful anti-religious people tend not to do this (although it often appears this way when their point is misunderstood). What they do is judge the religion based on its scripture, its inherent teachings, while bearing in mind that outside forces will influence how strictly certain passages and ethics are adhered to, or how they are interpreted.

    That said, there is clearly a point at which you can judge the religion itself for causing certain behaviours. It is not always merely political, because if it were -to use Sam Harris's point- why do we not see Tibetan monks flying planes into Chinese skyscrapers?
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    Jihad is far more into their lifestyle and culture than you think it is. Defensive war? my ass. In the books i read clearly that Islam and the way of Islam must be prevailing and expanding into the world and any territories in the history of Islam that were once under their wing, must be regained back no matter what 'cause they're considered as Islam terriroty forever. Now, where's the defense in all of this? Terrorist attacks by Jihadists all over the world are a real cancer of the world my friend.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    Unfortunately you're right. Islam is a serious plague on this planet.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    Wow. angry

    I'm seriously disgusted by some of the anti-Islam sentiments expressed here. Truly. So much prejudice and sweeping generalizations based on the actions of extremist groups. This is why I really don't participate in this thread more often -- I'm worried that it seriously diminishes my appreciation of some of my film music friends here.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    It's not just extremist groups that we base our disdain of Islam on, it's so-called mild forms of Islam too. Halal slaughter, for example, is a widely accepted practise that has become common place in many restaurants, supermarkets and takeaways. It's a truly disgusting practise, based entirely on scriptural beliefs, and yet is given special rights simply because of that.

    And why is it that everyone is so scared of insulting this particular brand of religion? Because they know the consequences it will incur. This sort of careful censorship is not borne from a peaceful religion, but a religion of violence and fear mongering.

    Although Islamic people are not inherently violent, Islam itself is an inherently violent religion (with the occasional passage of genuine wisdom)... no matter how offended you are. This is our point.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    Well, I think you're all overlooking the GOOD things that the Koran says and tries to do, and instead focus solely on the aspects that are morally questionable (this goes for ALL religions, btw) and draw an evaluation of that alone. Or you base it on the actions of those who interpret the writings in their most violent way. It's very skewed.

    And I find comments like "Islam is the plague of the planet" to be very narrowminded and very provocative. Sounds like something from a rightwing organization in America...or a Fox News program or something.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    Provocative indeed. Islam presents many people and animals with many problems, and it requires something more than 'Well this is a nuisance' to raise awareness. Also, morally questionable is putting it very mildly. But no one is drawing an evaluation on that alone. We are evaluating the effects seen because of these 'morally questionable' passages, and it is hard to ignore (unless you live under a rock).

    Islam is a particularly widespread problem. There, is that softer for your ears?
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    A bit, but still provocative. Islam is not the problem (although, like all religions, it has problematic passages) -- the practioners who interpret everything in the most extreme or violent way is.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    Thor wrote
    A bit, but still provocative. Islam is not the problem -- the practioners who interpret everything in the most extreme or violent way is.


    And yet again, you are spectacularly missing the point. But I shall avoid repeating myself as I have already explained why.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    Steven wrote
    Thor wrote
    A bit, but still provocative. Islam is not the problem -- the practioners who interpret everything in the most extreme or violent way is.


    And yet again, you are spectacularly missing the point. But I shall avoid repeating myself as I have already explained why.


    Well, I certainly haven't seen any meaningful explanation as to 'why' (related to what, exactly?). The only thing I've seen you do is to draw out a couple of issues that you find questionable in the practice of the religion.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    dizzy

    Okay.
  6. Also, from which perspective? Why are we looking at something that has almost 1400 years (or almost 2000) from the perspective of modern times? I think anachronistic look at a religious value system (Muslims and Orthodox Jews may adhere to these rules, Christians - not anymore, really) is quite dangerous. To assess something what has to be done is looking at things from the original perspective. Everyone fails to do that anymore. However, it should be clear to especially an antitheist that a particular religion is often a project of its times.

    As I said, by my knowledge of history, I can say that thanks to Islam we are very much aware and still in the ancient philosophical tradition, which ironically could also lead to some atheist ethical systems as well (and if we look at ancient ethics, we somehow forget that that ethical and political system endorsed slavery, still we don't have issues with basic principles of the Aristotelian concept "virtue ethics", do we?).

    While the prevailing of Islam is an interesting point to argue, Jihad still by principle is a defensive, not offensive concept. It's not about spreading the religion, but defending it. Again, the original historical context is the fact that the tribes didn't take Muhammad's ideas lightly.

    Again, it's extremism against the also hated moderate faith. The biggest danger of Islam is NOT the principles of religion, EVEN jihad, but the fact that Islam doesn't have a centralized interpretation of its basic source. Basically if you have three mosques in a city, EVERY mosque can interpret it differently, because of its scholars. There is no "tradition" of interpretation as there is the relevance of it in Catholicism (this tradition prevalence allowed Catholics to generally accept evolution theory, for example, evolution theory has basically eventually become a part of the doctrine). So as much as you get more and more interpretations of Qu'ran that specifically ban suicide attacks (heard of a couple in last 3-4 years) stated by certain scholars in mosques, it becomes irrelevant in light of Al-Qaeda having its own scholar court, which endorses suicide attacks. Now if you are a young potential shahid in Al-Qaeda and you have a choice between an interpretation of a couple of guys on an English university and the interpretation of a couple of guys belonging to your organization... Who would you believe?

    It's a problem of how do you interpret the book, not what is stated there. The Bible was largely screwed with, so we can't be shocked that Qu'ran was screwed with as well. The theological hermeneutics, as interpretation of such sources is called in theology and philosophy, is the key. Especially that it affects lives more than anything. What we have is very cynical and pragmatic play with human belief and eventually lives. This does have nothing to do with the core of a religion.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  7. Interesting thought. (I've read only the last post, not the 53 preceding!)
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    franz_conrad wrote
    (I've read only the last post, not the 53 preceding!)


    It's a brave endeavour should you decide to. But if you want a summary:

    Atheists: "Booo, religion!"

    Theists: "Yay, religion!"
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014 edited
    I consider myself somewhere inbetween there -- I'm Christian and appreciative of other religions, while at the same time acknowleding aspects that deserve criticism.

    Which means that I'm the best! biggrin
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2014
    Booo!