As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware)

Christodoulides wrote
Steven,

Just playing Devil's advocate here mate but what would you say to anyone suggesting perhaps you're not any better than those you so heartily oppose to? End of day, you both passionately defend your beliefs which are highly subjective since - knock on wood - nobody has gone up there (or down below, anyway) to check and come back to tell us the truth and we are all basically choosing what we want to believe and follow as real. How are you any different than any passionate Christian defending his beliefs?

Steven wrote
we have but theories, and that's it.

Steven wrote


A perfectly valid reason too, but not enough of a reason for me personally to base a strong belief on a creator since it still doesn't explain whom or what created the creator, it's an infinite regression. Scientists, unlike many religious people, are quick admit they simply do not know. This, for me, is not a reason to become religious.

So yes, you're absolutely right about the how and when the universe was formed; we have but theories, and that's it. I'm just amazed that religion hasn't looked at science and marveled at the infinitely more awe inspiring universe it describes!

PawelStroinski wrote
But there are things you believe in. Maybe even put above yourself (see as transcendent), don't you? It may be even reason. mind, nature.

Steven wrote
I highly doubt that early scholars looked at a leaf and surmised that it gets its energy from electromagnetic radiation by turning carbon dioxide and water into sucrose, glucose and starch to then be proved right by scientists in the 19th century.

An interesting hypothesis made by religion is that the Earth was created 6000 years ago, but geology has pretty much thrown that idea out the window thankfully. All evidence suggests the Earth is a lot older than that, and that's not just something I've blindly accepted on faith from my peers, I have studied basic geology and the predicted age of Earth. Fascinating stuff!

Steven wrote
So are you saying you're a better human being than me because you are religious? Obviously, I know you're not saying that, and I respect your intelligence in this matter, but I make this point because religion wouldn't help me to become a better person.

I, like Martijn, believe that Man is a god in his own right, and I have faith in Man's endurance and ingenuity (to quote him there). I believe goodness doesn't need to be taught by religion, but then of course shouldn't necessarily not be taught by religion. It's a handy basic guide for the masses you could say.

Steven wrote
Pretty much everything I've stated in previous posts in this thread. I shan't restate them as it will only take this discussion in circles. You're asking questions that I've already responded to by taking statements out of the context of previously made points.

Steven wrote
Yes, very true. I didn't mean that religion as a value system was never an important facet of religion before scientific advancements just to make that clear. Of course, it was, but I think it's safe to say that it taught and emphasized an Ultimate Truth to a much greater degree before these advancements came about, and it still does in many religious circles.

DemonStar wrote
Religions have changed through time.

But does everyone have your ideals? Do terrorists etc think like that?

I know it's pretty impossible now, but in the past, even terrible criminals have been changed into better people by Buddhism.

Pawel wrote
Religion builds a hierarchy, a sense of where we are, gives the teleological element to human existence

I think religious people may become depressed more rarely. Sadly, I don't have statistics to defend it.

DemonStar wrote:
But then, what exactly is WRONG with religion?

I’ve been debating with myself for several days about whether I should write this post. Since some other bloggers have dealt with this question quite effectively recently, I haven’t felt that I would have anything useful to add to the conversation. I changed my mind when I read Brian’s recent heart wrenching post. For the religious folks who wonder why nonbelievers care at all about religion and why we can’t we just respect believers’ beliefs and leave them alone, I offer the following thoughts.

The first problem that I have with religious beliefs is that, as Greta Christina pointed out recently, acting on the basis of false beliefs can lead to ill-conceived, even harmful, behavior and decisions. Take, for example, cases of snake handlers who die from snakebites, or Jehovah’s Witnesses who die for want of blood transfusions - both of which have occurred in the USA within the past several months. One may argue that such beliefs are misunderstandings of scriptural injunctions, but to so argue merely cedes my point. Yes, I agree, such beliefs are misunderstandings, but those misunderstandings are founded upon what believers have read in scriptures and they are founded upon traditions that have been passed down to successive generations for millennia. Quite simply, the misunderstood scriptures would not be taken so seriously, and the errant teachings that have been transmitted through the ages would not exist, were it not for the religious contexts that gave birth to them and continue to nourish them.

Consider the subject of Brian’s post that I alluded to in the opening paragraph of this post. In this case, a man who was suffering from mental illness heard the voice of god telling him to slaughter his family. He responded by killing his teen aged daughter. Fortunately, his wife was not home at the time of the murder so she was spared. Prior to that event, the man had told members of his church that he was haunted by demons, was hearing voices and so on. The church people believed that the man was extraordinarily blessed to have such experiences! The tragedies of this man’s delusional beliefs and his resultant behaviors are highlighted by the inconceivable (to me) failure of the man’s religious community to distinguish between mental illness and the leading of god’s holy spirit! Remove the shroud of religious superstition from the community’s thought processes and the man’s derangement would have been clearly evident.

I can already hear several of the faithful protesting that I’m painting all believers with the same broad, tainted brush. Most believers are not deranged, most believers do not handle poisonous snakes as part of their worship rituals, and only a few believers eschew modern medicine…. All of that is true, but it doesn’t change the underlying fact that theistic belief in any form is mistaken. Even if those mistaken beliefs don’t cause believers to make such egregious errors in judgment as those noted above, they can lead to other errors, such as susceptibility to swindling televangelists, or refusal to believe that one’s pastor is molesting Sunday school children, or the notion that abstinence-only sex education is sufficient, or the conviction that gays are evil…. Even though the vast majority of believers apply rational thought processes in most areas of their lives, there is a corner of their minds, especially for religious conservatives, in which they refuse to shine the light of reason. Every scrap of information they process is run through religious filters. If it does not threaten to undermine the religious scaffold around which they’ve built their lives, then normal reasoning processes can be applied safely. If a bit of information contradicts the scaffold, then it must be rejected. Religious liberals, on the other hand, frequently bend the scaffold so that it will accommodate new information. Whatever process one applies, the fact remains that there are points at which reason and religion conflict. How one handles those conflicts determines the extent to which religious belief is harmful. Sometimes the harm is confined to believers. Other times, however, that harm spills over and affects others, believers and nonbelievers alike. This brings me to my second problem with religious belief.

The second problem I have with religious belief is that believers do not live in vacuums. Their religious beliefs are not always private and those beliefs do affect others, including me, in numerous ways. Billy wrote a great post about this recently. To cite one example, when creationists and Intelligent Design proponents advocate for the inclusion of their non-scientific theories in school science curricula, in addition to hurting their own children, they threaten to undermine my children’s education, they threaten to undermine American progress in scientific and medical research and they threaten to dilute the American education system and thereby weaken our nation’s economy. In short, when they bring their religious beliefs into the public square and seek to impose those beliefs on others, they threaten our livelihoods and our well-being. Another example: when a fundamentalist presidential candidate advocates amending the Constitution so that it conforms to an ancient book of fables, he threatens my liberty of conscience. Cases like these and countless others lead me to conclude that the only way I can adopt a philosophy of “live and let live” is if religious believers will pledge to do the same. The moment they open their church doors and let their ideas drip all over the pavement is the moment they invite me, regardless of whether they intend to do so, to examine those ideas. This leads to my third problem with religious belief.

The third problem I have with religious beliefs is the persistent entreaty that I respect religious beliefs simply because they are religious. My response to this demand is that I’ll extend to religious beliefs the same degree of respect that I extend to astrology or phrenology or alchemy and not a speck more or less than that. Nevertheless, I will always strive to respect believers, regardless of what I think about their beliefs. If believers want their beliefs to be considered as plausible foundations of social, economic, international, educational, or any other public policies, then I will critique those beliefs just as scrupulously as I would critique the beliefs of a Marxist, a Maoist, or a monarchist. Religious beliefs are simply one class of ideas among many that have the potential to do real damage to individuals, societies and nations (though it seems self-evident to me that false beliefs will seldom pass muster as suitable foundations for good policy decisions). All ideas, religious and otherwise, should be scrutinized ruthlessly before one renders judgments regarding their soundness. Religious ideas are no more special than any others, they are simply more widespread and more deeply ingrained than most.

Setting aside, momentarily, the fact that religious beliefs are detrimental to believers and nonbelievers alike, it is true that all of us hold many values, interests and aspirations in common. These are bases upon which we can all agree to work together for our common good. If we can agree to do so, then maybe one day I’ll be able to revise my view of religion and concede that, perhaps, it is good for some people, though certainly not for all. Until that happens, however, I will continue to maintain that, given current conditions, religion’s bad effects far outweigh its good ones.

– the chaplain

DemonStar wrote

But wouldn't it be worth it if people, at least with the intention of pleasing God, start doing good deeds?

I say again, that is why religion began in the first place.

The communism rubbish began later because of people but that was NOT what religion is originally intended for.

The story about how Lord Buddha changed a robber who used to chop off people's fingers and string them into a necklace