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    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    DemonStar wrote
    Steven wrote
    I'll come back to this thread after I've chilled a bit... long weekend in Portsmouth! cheesy dizzy beer sleep


    Have a great time, Steven! beer


    Oh I did, but I probably should have made it more clear that I've actually just came back! biggrin smile

    Needs sleeps. sleep



    "BANG!" explode devil
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2008
    Timmer wrote
    Steven wrote
    DemonStar wrote
    Steven wrote
    I'll come back to this thread after I've chilled a bit... long weekend in Portsmouth! cheesy dizzy beer sleep


    Have a great time, Steven! beer


    Oh I did, but I probably should have made it more clear that I've actually just came back! biggrin smile

    Needs sleeps. sleep



    "BANG!" explode devil


    lol
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008 edited
    I think I should state my views on my life without religion as some have posted theirs about life with religion:

    I find just as much beauty in the world, if not more, than I would if I believed in a higher, supernatural, omnipresent, omnipotent being. I see the beauty of nature and mankind in and of itself.

    To me, believing in a god would actually take a lot of that beauty I see away. A composer composes a masterpiece not because he was created by God, but because he (and it's usually a he) was the one who created it. I find that much more an awe inspiring and beautiful thing than "God".

    I see much more beauty and meaning in emotions created in a godless world. I don't like this idea that it's because of "God" that we are able to love.

    I find infinite more beauty in nature knowing it was created in a Darwinian world than if it was already pre-designed by a 'dude in the sky'. The apparent random, chaotic yet perfect elegance of the cosmos is so much more amazing to me than the idea of any god having designed it.

    So the theist could argue that I don't believe in God because it makes me feel better not to, which is one of the arguments I tend to put forward to those who do believe in God - which would be a fair point to a degree. But then I base my disbelief on a lot of other things, so if one was to comment on that, I'd have to restate a lot of the arguments against faith that I've already made... and truth be told, that takes so much frickin' effort! biggrin dizzy
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    I respect your opinion, Steven. smile

    But speaking about myself, my faith in God is not just to appreciate the beauty of the nature around me, but it helps me to have more confidence in myself and do my work better. For example, we believe that God does everything for our own good. I know this sounds very illogical; for example, you can argue that like if there's an earthquake or terrorist attack, what was the good in it for the poor innocent victims? I mentioned my views about these in one of my previous posts too, but my point is, if we take the view of "everything happens for our own good" for our normal day to day life, won't we have more confidence? I for one feel reassured with the thought that there's an omnipresent, omnipotent being watching over me who will help me gain justice one day, whether it is true or not. Just the thought makes me not lose hope and work hard to achieve my goal in all situations. If only for the sake of confidence, I will continue to think this way IMHO! wink biggrin
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    Yeah, and I completely respect that opinion too, genuinely!

    My views on that are its complete antithesis; I feel much more reassured that I have control over my own life and confidence I gain is thanks to me and me alone. In this sense, it really comes down to a case of whether a person needs God or doesn't - and I just don't. But I don't really use this in any arguments I put forward to theists, because my personal feelings on the matter don't really stand as a good point to argue with IMO. But I state them because I hate being patronised by theists who say "we all need God" (not you Ravi, perhaps William to a degree though) or that "God could make you become a better person". It just isn't true in a lot of cases!

    To borrow the words of Einstein, I'm a deeply religious non-believer. wink (A statement which should never be taken out of context, as I fear it may come back to bite me on the ass. rolleyes )
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    Steven wrote
    But I state them because I hate being patronised by theists who say "we all need God" (not you Ravi, perhaps William to a degree though)


    rolleyes
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    Yep, because that constitutes as a good reply in this discussion doesn't it William?
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    Steven wrote
    Yep, because that constitutes as a good reply in this discussion doesn't it William?


    Yeah. LOL biggrin Listen, I do believe God can make people better, and I do believe we all need Him. I've been taught that sort of thing my entire life, so maybe it's just hard for me to accept change, to accept the possibility of life without God. I am not the kind of person to go around beating people over the head with the Bible, but it is what I believe. Also, how do you mean, "it just isn't true?"
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    Exactly what you would assume I mean; It just isn't true. It just isn't true what you've been taught, that being everyone "needs" God. If that were true, then why am I perfectly happy in a godless world? Why am I able to give a perfectly good statement about my views on a non-religious life?

    You need to think outside of the world and reality you live in and realise there are people out there who have very different lives and very different needs. This is why I would never say "you need to be an atheist, it will make you truly happy". What I am against in religion is exactly what I have said in previous posts; the problems it causes. If religion caused no problems at all in this world, then I wouldn't feel so obliged to put forth arguments of reason. But it continues to do so, whether you feel your stance and approach to religion does or does not.

    I feel offended by someone telling me I need God, I'm offended by your reply, it's childish, especially in this thread where so many excellent points have been made, religious and non-religious alike. It's like you're telling me you know what would be better for me, as though I am wrong to think I don't need a god, as though my happiness in a godless world is fake and I am blind to the true happiness religion can offer me. Utter bullshit. Effectively this is what you are saying whether you argue it or not. I have never said to anyone they would be happier if they were to disregard their beliefs, I simply challenge them to the best of my ability so that minds can be opened.

    I feel people are free to believe whatever they like (or whatever beliefs choose them) so long as it does not cause harm or affect any one else in the process. I believe religion should be a choice, for example if I were to raise a child, I would want it to learn about all the religions in the world and then make a choice to follow one of them or not from there on. I also believe a discussion and debate of such beliefs is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

    You quite clearly dislike me for challenging your faith. Which is understandable considering the way you have been taught it. (And I have met many people like this when I traveled across America... they really don't like it at all, something I learnt the hard way.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    If that were true, then why am I perfectly happy in a godless world? Why am I able to give a perfectly good statement about my views on a non-religious life?


    Because - and I know you'll rip me to shreds for this - I believe the Devil has a large role in deceiving people to feel happy and content without God. I've heard of this sort of thing a lot, actually.

    Steven wrote
    It's like you're telling me you know what would be better for me, as though I am wrong to think I don't need a god, as though my happiness in a godless world is fake and I am blind to the true happiness religion can offer me.


    Um, yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to tell you. applause wink

    Steven wrote
    I feel people are free to believe whatever they like (or whatever beliefs choose them) so long as it does not cause harm or affect any one else in the process. I believe religion should be a choice, for example if I were to raise a child, I would want it to learn about all the religions in the world and then make a choice to follow one of them or not from there on. I also believe a discussion and debate of such beliefs is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.


    As do I.

    Steven wrote
    You quite clearly dislike me for challenging your faith. Which is understandable considering the way you have been taught it. (And I have met many people like this when I traveled across America... they really don't like it at all, something I learnt the hard way.)


    Not dislike. It's just that I feel all alone on the board without any other Christians to stand up for what I'm saying (well there's Ravi, but he's Hindu. No offense intended, Ravi), and am getting a bit desperate. You think I like sitting here watching myself and my beliefs get torn apart? You think I'm not embarrassed that I have not been able to further defend my religion? I am. Very.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008 edited
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Steven wrote
    If that were true, then why am I perfectly happy in a godless world? Why am I able to give a perfectly good statement about my views on a non-religious life?


    Because - and I know you'll rip me to shreds for this - I believe the devil has a large role in deceiving people to feel happy and content without God. I've heard of this sort of thing a lot, actually.


    Good lord. So it's because of the Devil that I'm happy? Can you actually hear yourself? Sorry if that seems as though I am 'ripping you to shreds', but that is perhaps the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Honestly. (And no offense is aimed at you here.)

    With that logic, you could argue that atheists were created by the Devil to challenge the faiths of the religious. And which is more likely, that, or that humans are actually starting to use their intelligence for once? Hmm.

    I am dumbfounded at such a belief.

    Steven wrote
    It's like you're telling me you know what would be better for me, as though I am wrong to think I don't need a god, as though my happiness in a godless world is fake and I am blind to the true happiness religion can offer me.


    Um, yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to tell you. applause wink


    And that is exactly what I am opposed to. You cannot presume to know what would make me happier, like I could not presume to know what would make you happier.

    Steven wrote
    I feel people are free to believe whatever they like (or whatever beliefs choose them) so long as it does not cause harm or affect any one else in the process. I believe religion should be a choice, for example if I were to raise a child, I would want it to learn about all the religions in the world and then make a choice to follow one of them or not from there on. I also believe a discussion and debate of such beliefs is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.


    As do I.


    I doubt you would bring up a child to have a choice of religion or non-religion. You, like so many other religious parents have done, would teach that your faith is the only 'true path in life'. Difference between you and me on this matter is I wouldn't teach mine that atheism is the only true path. I apologise if that sounds patronising, but it also happens to be true. And this is one point I hope that I am wrong in making, but in all likely hood I am right. It's a truth that saddens me, and it's another reason why I am against religion.

    Steven wrote
    You quite clearly dislike me for challenging your faith. Which is understandable considering the way you have been taught it. (And I have met many people like this when I traveled across America... they really don't like it at all, something I learnt the hard way.)


    Not dislike. It's just that I feel all alone on the board without any other Christians to stand up for what I'm saying (well there's Ravi, but he's Hindu. No offense intended, Ravi), and am getting a bit desperate. You think I like sitting here watching myself and my beliefs get torn apart? You think I'm not embarrassed that I have not been able to further defend my religion? I am. Very.


    You are getting desperate because you are being torn between reason and faith. You see the reason being put forth, but in your heart you still stay strong to your faith. I can't say I envy that.
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Steven wrote
    If that were true, then why am I perfectly happy in a godless world? Why am I able to give a perfectly good statement about my views on a non-religious life?


    Because - and I know you'll rip me to shreds for this - I believe the devil has a large role in deceiving people to feel happy and content without God. I've heard of this sort of thing a lot, actually.


    Good lord. So it's because of the Devil that I'm happy? Can you actually hear yourself? Sorry if that seems as though I am 'ripping you to shreds', but that is perhaps the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Honestly. (And no offense is aimed at you here.)

    With that logic, you could argue that atheists were created by the Devil to challenge the faiths of the religious. And which is more likely, that, or that humans are actually starting to use their intelligence for once? Hmm.

    I am dumbfounded at such a belief.


    Why? If there is any possibility in the world that there may be a God, why do you think there is not any possibility whatsoever of a Devil?

    Steven wrote
    Steven wrote
    It's like you're telling me you know what would be better for me, as though I am wrong to think I don't need a god, as though my happiness in a godless world is fake and I am blind to the true happiness religion can offer me.


    Um, yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to tell you. applause wink


    And that is exactly what I am opposed to. You cannot presume to know what would make me happier, like I could not presume to know what would make you happier.


    I don't presume. I know.

    Steven wrote
    Steven wrote
    I feel people are free to believe whatever they like (or whatever beliefs choose them) so long as it does not cause harm or affect any one else in the process. I believe religion should be a choice, for example if I were to raise a child, I would want it to learn about all the religions in the world and then make a choice to follow one of them or not from there on. I also believe a discussion and debate of such beliefs is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.


    As do I.


    I doubt you would bring up a child to have a choice of religion or non-religion. You, like so many other religious parents have done, would teach that your faith is the only 'true path in life'. Difference between you and me on this matter is I wouldn't teach mine that atheism is the only true path. I apologise if that sounds patronising, but it also happens to be true. And this is one point I hope that I am wrong in making, but in all likely hood I am right. It's a truth that saddens me, and it's another reason why I am against religion.


    I would raise a child to believe in Christianity, but I would not completely block them off from learning about other religions. Just because I teach them one thing doesn't mean they can't and won't consider others.

    Steven wrote
    Steven wrote
    You quite clearly dislike me for challenging your faith. Which is understandable considering the way you have been taught it. (And I have met many people like this when I traveled across America... they really don't like it at all, something I learnt the hard way.)


    Not dislike. It's just that I feel all alone on the board without any other Christians to stand up for what I'm saying (well there's Ravi, but he's Hindu. No offense intended, Ravi), and am getting a bit desperate. You think I like sitting here watching myself and my beliefs get torn apart? You think I'm not embarrassed that I have not been able to further defend my religion? I am. Very.


    You are getting desperate because you are being torn between reason and faith. You see the reason being put forth, but in your heart you still stay strong to your faith. I can't say I envy that.


    And I can't say I envy anything that atheism has to offer.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008 edited
    Martijn wrote
    Bregje, Ravi, I understand what you mean, but for the sake of clarity in the discussion I would argue against employing the term 'religion' to anything that is NOT connected to the belief in the sacred and divine.

    I agree that there are zealots connected to every single cognitive, spriritual or physical aspect of life (including, obviously, science), but to equate zealousness to religion does a disservice to both.


    Agreed. Belief in science is not a religion for very solid reasons.

    Science does not teach the belief in supernatural beings like gods. It actually encourages a non-religious way of thinking. Science does not have holy days, does not ask people go to a place of communion to worship ideas and theories of science, does not have strict moral codes and does not hold one particular text as the be all and end all to the way of life. Science is a way of thinking analytically, teaching us to question things, to research things, to discover things and never be satisfied with what we already know - it seeks to learn new things constantly. This unfortunately cannot be said of religion.

    Science provides a basis for a worldwide view and general consensuses. Science enables well-researched ideas to be debated and discussed, whereas religion bickers over ideas that have been based on next-to-no knowledge about how nature actually works.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008 edited
    TheTelmarine wrote:

    I don't presume. I know.


    Then unfortunately it is impossible to have an intelligible debate with you as you are clearly showing a lack of intelligence. Again, apologies for the way that sounds.

    You assume, you do not know, as much as you would like to believe it. Same goes for me, I can't ever be 100% sure god doesn't exist. I base my assumptions on reason rather than faith. But would you ever admit that? No. You're far too close-minded.

    And as far as not envying anything atheism has to offer, that's fair enough. But keep in mind atheism is simply a non-belief in anything of supernatural quality, not necessarily a way of life. Atheists have many differing approaches to life, and to wipe all those approaches away under one brush, that of atheism, is an ignorant mistake.
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    Steven wrote
    TheTelmarine wrote:

    I don't presume. I know.


    Then unfortunately it is impossible to have an intelligible debate with you as you are clearly showing a lack of intelligence. Again, apologies for the way that sounds.

    You assume, you do not know, as much as you would like to believe it. Same goes for me, I can't ever be 100% sure god doesn't exist. I base my assumptions on reason rather than faith. But would you ever admit that? No. You're far too close-minded.

    And as far as not envying anything atheism has to offer, that's fair enough. But keep in mind atheism is simply a non-belief in anything of supernatural quality, not necessarily a way of life. Atheists have many differing approaches to life, and to wipe all those approaches away under one brush, that of atheism, is an ignorant mistake.


    I suppose you're right.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    Steven wrote
    Science does not teach the belief in supernatural beings like gods.


    True, but being a scientist doesn't necessarily mean having to lose faith in God IMHO. Even some great scientists believe in God; for example, our ex-president Dr. A.P.J Abdul Kalam is a world famous physics scientist. But when he was asked if he believed in God, he gave a reply very similar to what I had expressed earlier. smile biggrin
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    DemonStar wrote
    Steven wrote
    Science does not teach the belief in supernatural beings like gods.


    True, but being a scientist doesn't necessarily mean having to lose faith in God IMHO. Even some great scientists believe in God; for example, our ex-president Dr. A.P.J Abdul Kalam is a world famous physics scientist. But when he was asked if he believed in God, he gave a reply very similar to what I had expressed earlier. smile biggrin


    Exactly! Which just further proves my point that science is not a religion if scientists can still retain a religious belief of their own. smile
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    If I may ...*ahem!*....play devil's advocate for a moment, do you believers here believe that God created the Earth as the centre of the entire universe with mankind in his own image?
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008 edited
    Timmer wrote
    If I may ...*ahem!*....play devil's advocate for a moment, do you believers here believe that God created the Earth as the centre of the entire universe with mankind in his own image?


    I don't think Earth is the center of the universe. But the Bible does say man was made in God's image.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Timmer wrote
    If I may ...*ahem!*....play devil's advocate for a moment, do you believers here believe that God created the Earth as the centre of the entire universe with mankind in his own image?


    I don't think Earth is the center of the universe. But the Bible does say man was made in God's image.


    Why you don't believe Earth is the centre of the universe? (Not that I'm saying it is.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Timmer wrote
    If I may ...*ahem!*....play devil's advocate for a moment, do you believers here believe that God created the Earth as the centre of the entire universe with mankind in his own image?


    I don't think Earth is the center of the universe. But the Bible does say man was made in God's image.


    Why you don't believe Earth is the centre of the universe? (Not that I'm saying it is.)


    I don't know, honestly. It had never crossed my mind that it could be, and in some ways I think God would want to humble us and make us realize we are not the center of everything. I don't know; it's just always how I've thought it is. But then again, who can tell? The universe is so vast.
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008 edited
    Well, the most obvious reason why we're not in the center of the universe is because we're traveling around a star that is traveling around a supermassive black hole which is also traveling away from other stars that are traveling around supermassive black holes. wink

    (You have stumbled upon a philosophy which I agree with; we should be humble. We should realise we're not gods ourselves, even though we have created our own gods.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    Steven wrote
    Well, the most obvious reason why we're not in the center of the universe is because we're traveling around a star that is traveling around a supermassive black hole which is also traveling away from other stars that are traveling around supermassive black holes. wink


    Good point! biggrin wink
  1. The Bible doesn't really state that Earth is in the CENTRE of the universe. The churches managed to acknowledge Copernicus's (and Galileo's) discovery after a while.

    But yes, the Ptolemean system was based either on religion or stating mankind a BIT too high in the universal hierarchy. (Middle Ages interpreted Ptolemeus as Earth being the lowest, but in centre - in God's attention, if memory serves me well, I ain't no philosopher).
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    PawelStroinski wrote
    (...I ain't no philosopher).


    Hey, you're certainly better at it than most people!
  2. Thanks. I just have my views smile
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    Steven wrote
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Timmer wrote
    If I may ...*ahem!*....play devil's advocate for a moment, do you believers here believe that God created the Earth as the centre of the entire universe with mankind in his own image?


    I don't think Earth is the center of the universe. But the Bible does say man was made in God's image.


    Why you don't believe Earth is the centre of the universe? (Not that I'm saying it is.)


    Just what I've heard from other people who have religious beliefs.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    All this time I've been having a little dig at Jordi for getting words the wrong way round, I go and do it myself! That should read "Why don't you believe Earth is the centre of the universe?" biggrin

    My bad. shame shame

    Hard to believe people believe that in this day and age.
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    Timmer wrote
    Steven wrote
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Timmer wrote
    If I may ...*ahem!*....play devil's advocate for a moment, do you believers here believe that God created the Earth as the centre of the entire universe with mankind in his own image?


    I don't think Earth is the center of the universe. But the Bible does say man was made in God's image.


    Why you don't believe Earth is the centre of the universe? (Not that I'm saying it is.)


    Just what I've heard from other people who have religious beliefs.


    Wait, what have you heard? That it's not the center of the universe? confused
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2008
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Steven wrote
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Timmer wrote
    If I may ...*ahem!*....play devil's advocate for a moment, do you believers here believe that God created the Earth as the centre of the entire universe with mankind in his own image?


    I don't think Earth is the center of the universe. But the Bible does say man was made in God's image.


    Why you don't believe Earth is the centre of the universe? (Not that I'm saying it is.)


    Just what I've heard from other people who have religious beliefs.


    Wait, what have you heard? That it's not the center of the universe? confused


    That it IS the centre of the universe.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt