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As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware)

Off Topic » As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware) (Posts 91 to 120 of 1859)

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    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008
    TheTelmarine wrote
    LSH wrote
    Your holy book is true and if evidence appears to contradict it, it's the evidence that must be thrown out, not the book. When a science book is wrong, someone eventually discovers the mistake and it is corrected in subsequent editions, something that conspicuously doesn't happen with holy books.


    Can you show me a bit of evidence that proves Christianity is a farce and God is not real?


    Can you show us any evidence that Christianity isn't a "farce" and that God is real? My friend, proof is your burden since you profess to know an Ultimate Truth of life, not ours. You are taking this discussion for a ride on a roundabout and it is going no where. (Adding to this, non-believers have put forth a wealth of logical and scientific explanations for many of the Bible's stories. Occam's razor seems very likely you know. biggrin )
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    Excellent point. William, you can't expect people to accept that as an intelligible reply to this debate since...you've blindly assumed God is real.


    No, I know God is real.

    Steven wrote
    I'm sorry, but if you are going to debate like that then I can't really take this debate very seriously.


    You yourself said this whole thing is just going around in circles... wink

    Steven wrote
    The probability of God's existence is extremely low in light of scientific evidence...


    Just look around you. The world, the universe, the complexity of the human body and mind. I can't look around and not think God made it all. I can't think we all were made out of either nothing or some lesser creature. If evolution is true, why don't we seem to evolve anymore?

    Steven wrote
    No, I just assume he/she doesn't.


    You accuse me of assuming something. Look at yourself, assuming that God doesn't exist. Both of us "assume" something; only one of us is right, and each of us feels we are correct.

    Steven wroteYou on the other hand KNOW of God's existence, you think you hold some God-given knowledge that people like myself do not have the privilege of - and I find that extremely offensive to human intelligence.


    I don't think I "hold some God-given knowledge that" other people don't have. Almost everyone has the knowledge, and that is the knowledge of Jesus Christ's birth, death on the cross, and resurrection. But not everyone chooses to take it to heart.
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008
    Steven wrote
    You are taking this discussion for a ride on a roundabout and it is going no where.


    If I remember correctly, you're the one who initially started the whole thing. All I had said was that "I'm a Christian," and then things got going when you replied. wink
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008 edited
    The Holy Bible we know today is a director´s cut. It consists only of the texts that the council which decided upon it deemed worthy according to their vision of what should be in the book and what not.

    Beside the fact that the older texts come from the Thora, which, again, is based on Babylonian legends, which, by themselves, were based on Sumerian legends.

    Yeah, sure we´re listening to God´s own words every Sunday...

    Jesus... oh, pardon...

    The Bible is what every other "holy" book is. A guidance for life for the common people, set up by people who thought they knew how a civilization is organized best.
    •  
      CommentAuthorplindboe
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Don't feel sorry for me; I'm fine! biggrin It's you I feel sorry for.


    I feel sorry for both of you, because you both feel so sorry.

    Peter biggrin
    •  
      CommentAuthorLSH
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    The reason most people don't believe in evolution is simply because they haven't read about it most people don't believe in evolution is simply because they haven't read about it in-depth, or haven't understood it.


    TheTelmarine wrote
    If evolution is true, why don't we seem to evolve anymore?


    rolleyes
  7. Ralph Kruhm wrote
    The Holy Bible we know today is a director´s cut. It consists only of the texts that the council which decided upon it deemed worthy according to their vision of what should be in the book and what not.

    Beside the fact that the older texts come from the Thora, which, again, is based on Babylonian legends, which, by themselves, were based on Sumerian legends.

    Yeah, sure we´re listening to God´s own words every Sunday...

    Jesus... oh, pardon...

    The Bible is what every other "holy" book is. A guidance for life for the common people, set up by people who thought they knew how a civilization is organized best.


    I'm afraid we know the theatrical release, not the Director's Cut biggrin
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008 edited
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    The Holy Bible we know today is a director´s cut. It consists only of the texts that the council which decided upon it deemed worthy according to their vision of what should be in the book and what not.


    I've finally found a statement in this discussion that I actually agree with!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008 edited
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Steven wrote
    Excellent point. William, you can't expect people to accept that as an intelligible reply to this debate since ...you've blindly assumed God is real.


    No, I know God is real.


    And this is exactly the problem. You simply cannot profess to KNOW about the existence of something that cannot either be proved or disproved. Do you not see the insanity of this?

    Steven wrote
    I'm sorry, but if you are going to debate like that then I can't really take this debate very seriously.


    You yourself said this whole thing is just going around in circles... wink


    Yes, it is. Because you appear to fail to understand what debating actually entails. Intelligible points put forth against those that others have made. You have yet to do this in my opinion.

    Steven wrote
    The probability of God's existence is extremely low in light of scientific evidence...


    Just look around you. The world, the universe, the complexity of the human body and mind. I can't look around and not think God made it all. I can't think we all were made out of either nothing or some lesser creature. If evolution is true, why don't we seem to evolve anymore?


    Um, who said we're not evolving anymore? confused

    And you've just proven my point that those who believe believe because they NEED to:

    "I can't look around and not think God [created] it all". You're effectively saying you refuse to accept anything else other than that which best pleases you. And to this I shall add that "meaning" in life is a purely man-made concept, we have no way of really knowing if there is indeed a meaning to life. Only meanings to our own lives.

    [b]Steven wrote[b]
    No, I just assume he/she doesn't.


    You accuse me of assuming something. Look at yourself, assuming that God doesn't exist. Both of us "assume" something; only one of us is right, and each of us feels we are correct.


    I assume God doesn't exist but am open to the possibility of his/her existence. Nothing that I have learnt about in this life tells me that there is a God, so why assume otherwise? I base my assumptions on logic and reason rather than feelings and faith. If God is real, I think he/she will respect that. You KNOW he/she exists and are stubbornly faithful to that idea, un-open to the possibility that God does not exist. Please tell me I'm wrong, for this I actually want to be mistaken about.
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    I'm afraid we know the theatrical release, not the Director's Cut biggrin

    No, I´m afraid it´s the Director´s Cut of a much longer movie based on a much longer screenplay based on a novel which is based on the autobiography of the Sumerian "Gods" who came from the sky to teach Earthlings their wisdom. dizzy
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Steven wrote
    I'm sorry, but if you are going to debate like that then I can't really take this debate very seriously.


    You yourself said this whole thing is just going around in circles... wink


    Yes, it is. Because you appear to fail to understand what debating actually entails. Intelligible points put forth against those that others have made. You have yet to do this in my opinion.


    I told you, read The Case for Christ. That book has good evidence that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Steven wrote
    You KNOW he/she exists and are stubbornly faithful to that idea, un-open to the possibility that God does not exist. Please tell me I'm wrong, for this I actually want to be mistaken about.


    Honestly, I've been raised a Christian my whole life. I don't know what it's like without my belief in God.
  12. No,b believe me, that would be the theatrical release biggrin
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008 edited
    What I always find odd is that how do we react to other religions? Religions with multiple gods, or religions with other 'rules' and 'guidelines'. What about the Buddhism, Taoism, ... or gods in African tribes? Who is right? Are other religions wrong?

    Isn't that just a proof of how relative this all is? How human this is? How unreal it eventually all is?
    Kazoo
  14. I think as unreal as it seems, its effects are very real, hence the reason why religion is deadly serious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLSH
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2008
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Just look around you. The world, the universe, the complexity of the human body and mind. I can't look around and not think God made it all. I can't think we all were made out of either nothing or some lesser creature.


    Just because science has not yet answered every conceivable question about the universe, there is no need to turn to faith, which has never answered anything of significance.
    •  
      CommentAuthorplindboe
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008 edited
    Bregt wrote
    What I always find odd is that how do we react to other religions? Religions with multiple gods, or religions with other 'rules' and 'guidelines'. What about the Buddhism, Taoism, ... or gods in African tribes? Who is right? Are other religions wrong?

    Isn't that just a proof of how relative this all is? How human this is? How unreal it eventually all is?


    What strikes me too is that people are practically born into their beliefs, yet many seem to think that their time on Earth is some cosmic battle of beliefs, where their eternal destiny is determined. I mean, what religion do you think TheTelmarine would belong to had he been born in Iran?

    If the mormons are right, Heaven will be filled with people who were lucky to be born in Utah. If Allah was the right choice, Heaven will be filled with people from the Middle East. It's absurd to think that geographical location decides one's eternal fate, but that's the only logical conclusion, if any of these beliefs are right.

    Peter smile
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008
    There are many, many, many issues I have The Case For Christ, not the least of which is its rather spurious contention that it was written by an atheist who found so much evidence that he actualy turned Christian.
    It was not.
    It was written by a devout Christian, who at one point in his past happened to be an atheist, which has nothing to do with this book or the writing of it.

    There is no proof offered in this book, but rather a series of interviews with some theological and historical experts. These interviews are never rebutted, nor is any critical voice interviewed. Some good points are made on process, but the greater part of the book consists of preconceived conclusions and odd interpretations (one of them being the validity and accuracy of the Gospels' authors, which he purports are true because the authors claim it to be, supported by the fact that they seem so 'factual' ).

    I could go on and on, but it's getting kinda late.
    In short, I wasn't impressed.
    It's not a bad book, and interestingly structured, but it's never going to convince anyone with half a brain that it contains truth.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008 edited
    Martijn wrote
    There are many, many, many issues I have The Case For Christ, not the least of which is its rather spurious contention that it was written by an atheist who found so much evidence that he actualy turned Christian.
    It was not.
    It was written by a devout Christian, who at one point in his past happened to be an atheist, which has nothing to do with this book or the writing of it.

    There is no proof offered in this book, but rather a series of interviews with some theological and historical experts. These interviews are never rebutted, nor is any critical voice interviewed. Some good points are made on process, but the greater part of the book consists of preconceived conclusions and odd interpretations (one of them being the validity and accuracy of the Gospels' authors, which he purports are true because the authors claim it to be, supported by the fact that they seem so 'factual' ).

    I could go on and on, but it's getting kinda late.
    In short, I wasn't impressed.
    It's not a bad book, and interestingly structured, but it's never going to convince anyone with half a brain that it contains truth.


    I am under the impression that Lee Strobel was an atheist reporter for a good bit of his life, and wanted to tear Christianity apart, but instead ended up finding much evidence in favor of Christianity...
  19. William, for the sake of discussion. Can you tell me which Christian church do you belong to? It is quite relevant regarding your relation to the Scripture and I am not a person who mocks others because of their confession. If you prefer you may PM me with it.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008 edited
    TheTelmarine wrote
    I am under the impression that Lee Strobel was an atheist reporter for a good bit of his life, and wanted to tear Christianity apart, but instead ended up finding much evidence in favor of Christianity...


    Nope.
    Nothing of the sort.
    In fact, Strobel himself clearly states that the book was written quite a while after his conversion.
    Which of course is fine. But many of the Christian apologists have jumped on this, propagating the "yet another unbeliever seen the light through the facts" myth (compare the commonly held myth of Darwin's conversion)
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008 edited
    LSH wrote
    TheTelmarine wrote
    Just look around you. The world, the universe, the complexity of the human body and mind. I can't look around and not think God made it all. I can't think we all were made out of either nothing or some lesser creature.


    Just because science has not yet answered every conceivable question about the universe, there is no need to turn to faith, which has never answered anything of significance.


    Bloody well said. smile

    And Martijn, glad to see you chiming in, if there's one person most suited for an intelligible debate, it's certainly you.

    beer
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_EXqdJ4L7I biggrin (It's on the TV at the moment. It's hilarious.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008
    Martijn wrote
    TheTelmarine wrote
    I am under the impression that Lee Strobel was an atheist reporter for a good bit of his life, and wanted to tear Christianity apart, but instead ended up finding much evidence in favor of Christianity...


    Nope.
    Nothing of the sort.
    In fact, Strobel himself clearly states that the book was written quite a while after his conversion.
    Which of course is fine. But many of the Christian apologists have jumped on this, propagating the "yet another unbeliever seen the light through the facts" myth (compare the commonly held myth of Darwin's conversion)


    Interesting...
    •  
      CommentAuthorLSH
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_EXqdJ4L7I biggrin (It's on the TV at the moment. It's hilarious.)


    I watched this on DVD at a friend's house. It's bloody funny.

    "I wish I could fly... like normal." HAHA

    beer
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008 edited
    LSH wrote

    "I wish I could fly... like normal." HAHA


    Animals is a ssseething sssatire on ssstupidity! (As the snake would say.) I love it! biggrin (Unlike my puns. sad)
    •  
      CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008 edited
    Bregt wrote
    What I always find odd is that how do we react to other religions? Religions with multiple gods, or religions with other 'rules' and 'guidelines'. What about the Buddhism, Taoism, ... or gods in African tribes? Who is right? Are other religions wrong?

    Isn't that just a proof of how relative this all is? How human this is? How unreal it eventually all is?


    A great question, and one that has intrigued me for some time. It's precisely why my second major in school is the study of religion as it relates to various aspects of society. I'm enjoying just reading all these comments even though the arguments here are all quite similar to those in other religious discussion forums I read (although more civil).
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008
    Steven wrote
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_EXqdJ4L7I biggrin (It's on the TV at the moment. It's hilarious.)


    British humor rolleyes tongue biggrin
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008
    I pretty much prefer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIcrCZQk … re=related and this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUH1H-b- … re=related biggrin
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008
    I love Lewis Black, he often criticizes USA politics and creationism/religion.

    My all time favourite:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_BRZoXjOmI punk

    'And then there are fossils...'. biggrin
    Kazoo
    •  
      CommentAuthorChristoph
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2008 edited
    http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/religulous/ I don't know any one has linked this already. I'm gonna like this movie biggrin. Just like Bregt said religion is extremely relative, most people have a genetic spirituel need for something bigger to explain things. Religion is the opium for the masses , marx one said. I appreciate the Christian values but when religion is used to organise a society(as a weapon of social power-control) and to establish certain dogma's in thoughts, the weakness of the human mind is shown to the fullest. Science evolved to a point where a dialogue between religin and science becomes very difficult. In the West we are evolving to a complete secularisation, which is a good thing.

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