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      CommentAuthormoonie
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    This is probably discussed somewhere else but I wanted to start a discussion about this score alone, Im my opinion the best Star Wars Score and Movie.
    I enjoy them all to different degrees but this filmscore stands out as a crowning Williams achievement.
    I guess with Clones coming out Im in a Star Wars mood.
    and if you like to mention McNeely's wonderful score for Shadows you can, its Empire related.
    So you dont have to point out where the other discussion is.

    Thanks guys, lets have fun and a good discussion which from what I have seen happens here alot.


    sd smile
    Goldsmith Rules!!
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008 edited
    I have to say that I have always been a Return Of The Jedi apologist, especially as far as the score is concerned: to me it is the most dramatically satisfying as far as a sense of apotheosis goes.

    That said, I was never more excited than when an expanded album for The Empire Strikes Back was released. I couldn't believe they left off pieces like Rebels At Bay, City In The Clouds, Departure of Boba Fett and Hyperspace! Until that time I had to make do with the single album which to my mind, aside from The Asteroid Field didn't contain all that great stuff in the first place (the concert suites excepted of course). I was just amazed at the wealth of material left off!

    All in all Empire is to me the most clever one of the lot: it builds on the framework firmly established three years earlier, and adds SO many themes and motifs that it has to stand out as one of the crowning achievements of film scoring in modern history.

    But because of its overwhelming darkness (intended, of course!) the score has never become my favourite of the three.
    (I should add of course that all three Star Wars scores are lonely at the top in my list. We're talking the merest percentiles of difference in appreciation here!).
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorNautilus
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    What if Hans Zimmer was scored it????

    I really could have loved that!!!

    biggrin tongue
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008 edited
    You know, I *honestly* thought of adding "I will shoot anyone who mentions Pirates Of The Caribbean here", but thought better of if, as I felt it might invite rather than deter.

    Apparently even my brain waves are so massively powerful that they still affected the Catalonian Cast-out... Or is it simply that the Force has a strong influence on the weak of mind? wink
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    Martijn wrote
    You know, I *honestly* thought of adding "I will shoot anyone who mentions Pirates Of The Caribbean here", but thought better of if, as I felt it might invite rather than deter.

    Apparently even my brain waves are so massively powerful that they still affected the Catalonian Cast-out... Or is it simply that the Force has a strong influence on the weak of mind? wink


    biggrin


    Hans didn't have the chops to score Star Wars then.

    He still hasn't NOW!
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    Interestingly one of the very first computer-generated Star Wars parodies I have obtained (created on Commodore Amigas in the early ninties, released as a company promo on VHS) employed significant parts of Zimmer's Backdraft as background score. smile
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    shocked Holy SHIT!
    I actually found it on-line!

    ...and oddly enough, Zimmer isn't to be heard.
    Is my memory THAT off? sad
    Damn. I have the tape right here...and I just booted out my old VHS last week!!!!
    angry
    ARRRGGGGHhhhhh
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  1. Empire is one of my most loved scores ever, but as Martijn also stated, I'm much more of a Jedi fanatic, also movie-wise, because the trilogy builds to its climax here, and musically there are some real gems here, that were only hinted at in Empire but developed fully in Jedi... But still, Empire is fantastic in every sense of the word, whenever I listen to the full 2 hours of the complete album I'm so emotionally exhausted I have to literally calm down because of all the excitement in my brain.

    That said, Hope, Empire & Jedi are what film music is all about, it's the very essence of this genre and you cannot take one score out, they all add up to the most glorious symphony ever written for film. When I heard Joel McNeely's add-on score (Shadows of the Empire) for the book (and videogame, which is where I discovered it) I truly thought this guy was the next Williams, because its sound is so much like Star Wars, and even Phantom Menace didn't sound as epic as Shadows.
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
    • CommentAuthorsteb74
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008 edited
    DreamTheater wroteEmpire is one of my most loved scores ever, but as Martijn also stated, I'm much more of a Jedi fanatic, also movie-wise, because the trilogy builds to its climax here, and musically there are some real gems here, that were only hinted at in Empire but developed fully in Jedi....

    Absolutely, I think it's one of the greatest scores ever written, without doubt it's in my top group of favs. A Lex Steele of film scores cool
    What would be examples of your fav musically developed gems?

    But still, Empire is fantastic in every sense of the word, whenever I listen to the full 2 hours of the complete album I'm so emotionally exhausted I have to literally calm down because of all the excitement in my brain..
    Hope, Empire & Jedi are what film music is all about, it's the very essence of this genre and you cannot take one score out, they all add up to the most glorious symphony ever written for film..

    Indeed, hmm, what might Yoda say?? 'ahem..with that...I cannot disagree...' spin

    When I heard Joel McNeely's add-on score (Shadows of the Empire) for the book (and videogame, which is where I discovered it) I truly thought this guy was the next Williams, because its sound is so much like Star Wars, and even Phantom Menace didn't sound as epic as Shadows.

    I must admit this is an area I don't normally agree with.
    First of all, I do think SOTE is a great score, but a great fantasy score, apart from the direct Williams quotes, I don't find the language to be all that similar to what for me is the SW sound.
    There is similar instrumentation indeed but Williams has such an advanced harmonic vocabulary and uses such rich and often complex voicings in his writing that most of the time any SW music I hear just sounds like great fantasy music, but not quite SW music.
    That's why I love the prequel music too, it's more complex than the original trilogy but it still has Williams' harmonic stamp weaved throughout from start to finish.
    Didn't McNeely only have a microscopic time frame in which to compose this score though?
    If so, that is also a wonderful feat punk
  2. I was just voicing my opinion here about SOTE, you have yours, I fully understand. It's just a score that gives me goosebumps, like it's forefathers and therefor I completely adore it.
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008 edited
    I'm completely with Gilles.
    When Shadows Of The Empire came out, I pegged McNeely as Williams' natural successor (of course this never came to pass, and with the exception of the three magnificent core musical pieces of the prequel trilogy where Williams once more demonstrates his uncanny ability to weave a melody, I've had some mixed feelings about that). It's possibly the most epic work he's done and he's created some great and very authentic themes in addition to his adaptation of Williams' own signature themes.
    I'm more than happy to count Shadows Of the Empire as part of the Star Wars musical legacy. It's as close to Williams work on the original trilogy as anything, and I for one enjoy it a lot more than the prequel trilogy music.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorsteb74
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008 edited
    Sorry guys, I hope I didn't sound like I was dumping on SOTE, I truly wasn't.
    I do think it's a cracking score and McNeely from what I've seen and read is a top guy too.
    A splendid composer in his own right.
    I'm honestly delighted when anyone get something positive from a piece of music, even if I don't feel the same way.
    I completely include this score in the SW music legacy, no doubt about it.
    There's no reason the SW universe can't have a sonic palette that extendeds beyond Williams' contributions, but I must admit that the sound that Williams achieves is really the one I'm most interested in, certainly a little narrow minded, but what's a guy to do?? wink
  3. @ steb74 no need to apologise dude, maybe I was a little agressive in the way I said it (now I reread my comment), but trust me it wasn't intentionally. I just wanted to acknowledge that differing opinions are needed, even in an interesting topic such as this one, so I fully understand your thoughts and your views on that score.
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
  4. As I said a lot of times before, I think SotE is more than a bit off the usual Williams stuff. I would never say it´s a bad composition, but that it is too big a composition for what it was written for. After all, the story didn´t carry one bit of that overblown opera that SotE is. It IS great music, without a doubt, but compared to the book (and to the other SW stuff by Williams) it is more than a bit too heavy, too large, too much for my taste.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    Onto the epic Battle Of Hoth cue (from the The Empire Strikes Back Extended Edition score): music to wage WAR to.
    Hmmm...the mixing seems...different than I remember.
    The piano seems more prominent than from other recordings I own?
    Strange.
    I'll have to look into this.

    In the meantime I'm enjoying the sith out of this! This really gets the adrenalin going.
    I especially like the "hopeless defeat" motif (overlaid by the Force theme) which Williams revisits during the Ewok battle cues in Return Of The Jedi.
    Oh! This is excellent stuff!
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorRian
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    I liked the old Ewok Celebration song at the end of the 3rd soundtrack, and because of that hate the reworked ending they did in '97. Don't worry, because I hate the re-reworked ending in 200x even more! smile
    What do you hear? Nothing but the rain...
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008 edited
    I loved the Special Edition ending, because I was absolutely convinced that it was a first taste of a new theme, probably for the (Old) Republic, and the sheer thought of the possibility to hear it full-length and in a lot of variations in the Prequels blew my mind away. I thought it to be hauntingly beautiful (just listen to it again and imagine it played much slower, with flute, with oboe, with orchestra, then full-blown, then as a quick action variant, it would have been possible to do all that with it, and it would have been fantastic). When the prequels came and I had my first listen of the Episode 1 score, I was very close to being reduced to tears that Williams´ had not revisited that theme. My God, what a waste...
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    Um, would it not be better to have this as a general Star Wars score thread? Seems a bit limiting to name it for just one score? confused
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      CommentAuthormoonie
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    Um, would it not be better to have this as a general Star Wars score thread? Seems a bit limiting to name it for just one score? confused


    That would be fine , I just wasnt sure if this had been discussed before, by all means , I love all the SW scores!!


    sd smile


    We can even add the Charles Gerhardt Empire cd and the trilogy by Varujan Kojian with the Utah.
    Goldsmith Rules!!
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    moonie wrote

    We can even add the Charles Gerhardt Empire cd and the trilogy by Varujan Kojian with the Utah.


    punk punk punk punk punk

    biggrin
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    Rian wrote
    I liked the old Ewok Celebration song at the end of the 3rd soundtrack, and because of that hate the reworked ending they did in '97. Don't worry, because I hate the re-reworked ending in 200x even more! smile


    For sentimental reasons (and the excellent crossover from Ewok voices to full choir) I prefer the original '83 Ewok Celebration, but I like the slightly ethnic South-American flavour of the Victory Celebration a LOT as well: I thought Williams imbued it with the same cathartic power as the original.

    Still though: Allay-loo ta nuv! punk
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthormoonie
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    Now that Ive opened this up and at the risk of getting light sabers thrown at me, I really love Augie's Great Municipal Band from Phantom.


    sd smile
    Goldsmith Rules!!
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    <throws first light sabre>

    The track itself is not so bad (in fact, it's quite goofy fun, with a little twist built in in the way of the Emperor's theme being vaguely discrenable), but the transition between Augie's Municipal Band and the End Credits is SO harmonically jarring I was never able to properly enjoy it. slant
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorRoy212
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    I'm in slight shock, I just returned home from doing weekly food shopping at the local Super WalMart. In the music section, there it was, Kiner's "Star Wars: The Clone Wars. It only cost $12 (they actually had a score in their soundtrack section). I grabbed it and just finished playing it. In my opinion, it's OK. I am now playing the '97 version of "The Empire Strikes Back". I haven't listened to it in a while.....it's really great. The only statement I'd like to make is The Star Wars Trilogy scores are probably some of the best motion picture scores ever wtitten.
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      CommentAuthormoonie
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008 edited
    Roy212 wrote
    I'm in slight shock, I just returned home from doing weekly food shopping at the local Super WalMart. In the music section, there it was, Kiner's "Star Wars: The Clone Wars. It only cost $12 (they actually had a score in their soundtrack section). I grabbed it and just finished playing it. In my opinion, it's OK. I am now playing the '97 version of "The Empire Strikes Back". I haven't listened to it in a while.....it's really great. The only statement I'd like to make is The Star Wars Trilogy scores are probably some of the best motion picture scores ever wtitten.



    Very true my friend, I liked Clone Wars , sorry Erik. But Im now listening to the end title of Phantom.
    I gotta tell this Duel of the Fates is a superb piece of music. I cant see how anyone that listens to it doesn't gets goose bumps all over.


    sd smile
    Goldsmith Rules!!
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      CommentAuthorWilliam
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2008
    moonie wrote
    ... I liked Clone Wars , sorry Erik.


    My apologies, as well. biggrin wink
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2008 edited
    Count me in too. O the shame, the shame of it all!
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2008 edited
    Martijn wrote
    Onto the epic Battle Of Hoth cue (from the The Empire Strikes Back Extended Edition score): music to wage WAR to.
    Hmmm...the mixing seems...different than I remember.
    The piano seems more prominent than from other recordings I own?
    Strange.
    I'll have to look into this.


    The Special Edition mixes of all the Star Wars scores are absolutely awful. Too much hiss, the warmth of the original recordigns are gone, reversed stereo channels (a lot of this in the Empire album) and don't get me started on Disc 2 of Jedi. The only Special Edition release I listen to is Star Wars because it's the only release that is in chronological order. When I want to listen to Empire and Jedi I turn to the Arista Star Wars Anthology box. Warmer sound, and it contains the best sounding Jedi album. I will also listen to Gerhardt's albums before I listen to the Special Edition version ever again.

    As for Clone Wars... no need to apologize. You like it... fine. I think it's ordinary and generic. And I just can't simply separate it from the Star Wars universe because the title on the album is STAR WARS: THE CLONE WARS Therefore it's part of the Star Wars legacy and has to live up to the musical standards established by John Williams and then followed by Joel McNeely, Jeremy Soule and a numerous other composers who have worked in the Star Wars universe in various mediums.

    -Erik-
    host and producer of CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2008
    Erik Woods wrote

    As for Clone Wars... no need to apologize. You like it... fine. I think it's ordinary and generic. And I can't separate it from the other Star Wars scores because the title on the album is STAR WARS: THE CLONE WARS Therefore it's part of the Star Wars universe and has to live up to the musical standards established by John Williams and then followed by Joel McNeely, Jeremy Soule and a numerous other composer who have worked in the Star Wars universe in various mediums.

    -Erik-


    I didn't want to compare at first, especially with the WILLIAMS' originals, but the comparisons are unavoidable and this very score is significantly weaker.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.