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  1. I think atonal techniques should stay in filmmusic and concert music, but not as an aim in and of itself, but as a technique. Then I love it. For example, I love Horner's atonal sensibilities in action music, I love Goldenthal with his methods.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthoromaha
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008
    PawelStroinski wrote
    I think atonal techniques should stay in filmmusic and concert music, but not as an aim in and of itself, but as a technique. Then I love it. For example, I love Horner's atonal sensibilities in action music, I love Goldenthal with his methods.


    And why is Zimmer your favorite?
    Serious question. I don't mean anything by it.
  2. This was written back in the late 90s, in response to the Oscar score nominations of 1997:

    In the nineties, movie music finds itself enriched by a long history. The most innovative composers know that history and fight against it. Here’s a common scenario: Before the composer arrives on the scene, the director has been editing his rough cut with what is called a “temp track”—a temporary assortment of cues drawn from preëxisting scores. Very often, the director grows fond of the temp track, and the composer is essentially told to duplicate it or supply a smattering of original touches. This practice of musical inbreeding is particularly endemic to action movies. Composers for the likes of “The Rock,” “Con Air,” and “Face/Off” draw on an increasingly limited set of devices—static minor-key sequences, monotonous electronic beats, pompous male choruses, and pseudo-baroque patterns that heavy-metal guitarists would find tedious. Sensitive dramas, meanwhile, are given greeting-card music, with tinkling piano. Still, a fair number of composers—Danny Elfman, Howard Shore, and Elliot Goldenthal come to mind—have managed to resist these formulas and write music that sounds fresh with each picture. Hornerism is not yet triumphant.

    http://www.therestisnoise.com/2004/05/oscar_scores.html

    'Word', emphatically on the bolded section. Those issues haven't exactly gone away.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008
    franz_conrad wrote
    sdtom wrote
    Michael, do you really think that the average listener can really get into and understand this type of music? I still believe they are a lot more comfortable with the 'war horses'
    Thomas smile


    I think it has a part to play, in modern concert hall composition, and in modern film music. The former, because it involves superb musicianship and can be gripping to witness, the latter, because even if you find the music inaccessible there is no denying to carries dramatic associations that are very useful for the film composer.


    The examples you mentioned above are mostly blends, Michael, by deeply experienced composers who have worked in several genres and experimented largely.

    Pure atonal compositions by noawadays' youngsters in the vein of Schoenbergh et all or pure serialism are simply unlistenable imo and mostly exist to satisfy certain composers' egos as they can't even be performed and / or listened by anyone, most of those modern-day compositions exists only in Sibelius and their computers, thankfully.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  3. Calling it bad because you don't like it isn't the most convincing argument, and putting a near half century of composition down to ego games is terribly dismissive. There's plenty of Schoenberg and Boulez and Xenakis and Stockhausen worth spending the time with. I agree the style can be a bit arid in isolation, but there's room for the best of everything in my view.

    I don't want to know what you think of Pierre Schaeffer's Etudes. wink
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008 edited
    You misunderstood me.

    I was talking mainly about younger composers who are based on those works you mention to create junk that is bound to stay within the universities, thus their eternal complex to call it "academic music" and automatically diminish everything else's value as pure junk.

    Like one of my "blessed' professors here in the University who has studied with some atonalist in Austria during the 90's and called in front of us, in the auditorium during a lesson, "every tonal work in any genre that has been written after the last acknowledged composer of the Romantic Era, is a piece of rubbish"[/i], regardless to say that everyone was stunned by the dude and many left the room at once. The emphasizes on words i put on italics were exactly emphasized in the same matter by the dude, when he spoke them.

    The composers you mentioned - although 90% of the work unbearable to my ears, are wholly acknowledged and respected in their own terms and have created something new in their era.

    Many talentless hacks of today however, hide their inability to actually write something worthwhile (not necessarily tonal per se, see Goldenthal or Gorecki for instance, but you DO need to have tremendous ability and balls to write as such) behind the thousand-heard excuses that 'it is an academic form of music not necessarily intended to be performed or listened by anyone (!) that you can't all understand" despite the fact that "us all" is made up of musicians, musicologists and relative professionals.

    PURE, UTTER BULL. And you haven't even listened to what i am actually talking about here wink

    Or maybe you have!
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008 edited
    Oh and i forgot the best of statements, also made in my uni from another of those complex-bastards we get as professors; When asked about film music (as a part of a talk being made due to a film music lesson being offered at the school, at that specific semester) he said the following:

    "Don't bother me with this. Film music is pseudo-art junk that only exists to satisfy the directors' pop fantasies"

    Needless to say that he is another one of those self-proclaimed atonalist composers too.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  4. I did misunderstand you. I thought you were saying it was all crap. I know what you're saying, particularly about that Professor you mention. The serialist movement would be a lot more palatable if they weren't so bullying and obnoxious about being the only true composers.

    By the way, it's hard to find many serious composers who teach who'll say nice things about film music. wink
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  5. Penderecki tends to say something similar. Even if actually he did some scoring back in the 50s/60s. Kilar writes scores and is diminishing the genre as he can.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008 edited
    I'd excuse the two however 'cause they have written spectacular music, both of them and Penderecki in particular, has created a very unique sound which is very impressive in its own term. I'd attribute the comments to the fact that they are obviously "forced" to write for film due to financial needs they can't avoid when they'd obviously prefer to make the same money out of their concert work where nobody tells them what to do and how to do it and where their egos are flying.

    The gentlemen i am talking about have contributed absolutely nothing to anyone nor anything, in VIOLENT contrast to the afore-mentioned composers.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008
    franz_conrad wrote
    By the way, it's hard to find many serious composers who teach who'll say nice things about film music. wink


    There's a saying we have here in Greece about a fox who can't jump high enough to reach the grapes and after many tries, leaves, angrily proclaiming that the grapes are crap and not worth it anyway.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008
    Good point Michael. I can relate it to photography when I first started in the business. Artists would look down on photography. That of course has somewhat changed
    Thomas smile
    listen to more classical music!
    •  
      CommentAuthoromaha
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008
    Every time you write parallel fifths Bach kills a kitten. shocked

    This is a facebook group. haha
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    franz_conrad wrote
    By the way, it's hard to find many serious composers who teach who'll say nice things about film music. wink


    There's a saying we have here in Greece about a fox who can't jump high enough to reach the grapes and after many tries, leaves, angrily proclaiming that the grapes are crap and not worth it anyway.


    We have a saying too.

    If it looks like shit, smells like shit and taste like shit it IS shit.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008
    So you agree with the said composers who accuse film music as cheap pop art? Notice that they have always been talking about it like that and not only recently.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008 edited
    Christodoulides wrote
    So you agree with the said composers who accuse film music as cheap pop art? Notice that they have always been talking about it like that and not only recently.


    No, the professor you mention is a narrow minded cretin with too high an opinion of himself.

    There's another saying.

    Those who can DO!

    Those who can't teach.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008
    ....like our Fox saying then, in a way wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    ....like our Fox saying then, in a way wink


    In a roundabout way yes! smile
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  6. Timmer wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    So you agree with the said composers who accuse film music as cheap pop art? Notice that they have always been talking about it like that and not only recently.


    No, the professor you mention is a narrow minded cretin with too high an opinion of himself.

    There's another saying.

    Those who can DO!

    Those who can't teach.


    1. And those who don't want to...?

    2. Why aren't we all teachers?! biggrin
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  7. biggrin
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  8. franz_conrad wrote
    sdtom wrote
    Michael, do you really think that the average listener can really get into and understand this type of music? I still believe they are a lot more comfortable with the 'war horses'
    Thomas smile


    I think it has a part to play, in modern concert hall composition, and in modern film music. The former, because it involves superb musicianship and can be gripping to witness, the latter, because even if you find the music inaccessible there is no denying to carries dramatic associations that are very useful for the film composer.

    The last time I tried to make a substantial comment on this thread I lost it all when the text disappeared when the system timed out...

    I agree that serialism & 12-tone music does have a place in film music. And I'm sure, Tom, that the vast majority of listeners don't understand the theories about what they are listening to - and they don't really care. I really think that The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3 is one of the finest film scores, including the wonderful main theme. I love this score because there's something about it that I latched on to when I first heard it. I know about the theory behind the score's construction and I've read a lot on how the music is put together, but I must say that I still can't really see/hear exactly what it is people mean. But it doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the music.

    I sometimes become frustrated about not really understanding the music I'm listening to...but there are other times when I am pleased that I know very little about the mechanics of music so that I can just enjoy the music for what it is - great music to listen to.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2008
    Sometimes a little knowledge is dangerous
    Thomas smile
    listen to more classical music!
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2008
    I hate that time out too!
    Thomas smile
    listen to more classical music!
    •  
      CommentAuthorTimon
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2008
    I will add my thoughts here too. First of all a minor off topic question for the experts: Was there much atonality in the "There will be blood" score and could you explain in easy to understand musical terms why it was such an atypical score and so hard to listen too? Isn't he's a good example of how a pop/rock musician can acctually compose something interesting and still very well composed?

    Secondly. When talking about the state of filmmusic in general, you have to make a difference between :

    - how the music works in films these days. I don't complain about that. Turning back to the old ways of composing would only hurt a film. Consider why Yared was replaced on Troy. Wet dreams from traditional score fans are nightmares for contemporary filmmakers.

    - What the released music on albums sounds like. Some of the music does not sound well as a stand alone listening experience. Speaking as an aspirant director, I prefer to have a bad score that works well in a good film than the other way around. And sadly for Goldsmith I am more thrilled to look for filmmusic from popular titles.

    (Yet with all the fora like this one, the review sites and all the other opportunities, quality rises to the surface of the water anyway - which was probably a weird way of putting it. biggrin There are numorous tracks that reached me from films that I have never seen. Some of those films I will avoid, sometimes I will want to see how a certain track is used in a particular film. For instance, Tarawa from JNewtonHoward. It can turn out to be a big dissapointment too - I think of the Paycheck score from Powell. It's the unique thing of score afficionado's, we enjoy the music apart from the film.)

    Considering those recent (in 5 years) scores, I think its going very well. There's still a lot of good music that is released, even the more obscure stuff, and also for every taste. For me, I think composers like Giacchino and JNH are doing a great job - in a more traditional way. I think that the King Kong score, although it was a quick replacement job, was as good as anything that the current John williams would have had come up with. It was even better, compared with Williams' latest job for The Crystal Skull wich was pretty much a dissapointment, from the big hero of golden scores from the past. (Zimmer collaborator - Big hero from the golden age: 1-0) Seriously, I'm not a big connaisseur on all the techniques of composing, but something like "Defeat is always Momentary" always sounds very much like John Williams to me.

    What I also most adore in scores, are the themes. I bought Horners music for Troy just for the splendid achilles theme (that wasn't even highly original when I come to think about it.) I gradually discovered the past scores - in the late nineties - with the big themes for star wars, dances with wolves, patton, north by northwest, lovestory, the untouchables, ..etc.

    I do enjoy it when they still use "very orchestral" music, with lots of motifs and themes and layers. The biggest fear of score fans is "what if there's a continuing trend of effective (non ost-interesting) music?" Will only bland and rehashed music remain and will the classically trained musicians lose their way to hollywood? I think not. Popular music is very much based on strong melodies and old pop music remains populair because of them. Every composer know that, directors and producers can and will always be seduced by a good tune. Even the recent blockbusters series rely on that (although these particular themes aren't always that good - Potter series, Bond series continue to use their theme. Shrek had it's own theme, Bourne, Pirates, Spider Man, FF, the hobbits, and when the fourth Jurassic Park film is made you can be sure the fanfare will return, ..)

    So ofcourse(!) we've had many great themes in the recent years. Classic stuff. Summon of the worms. Pirates of the Carribean. the Manta Squadron theme. LOTRs themes. The Black Spidey-theme (loved it so much). Finding Neverland. Departed tango. The hours. Arrival to earth. Gladiator themes. Vide Cor Meum. Amelie Poulain - I know not "originally composed", yet very well known as film music, Wings, Time Machine theme, And now I only speak with my limited knowledge on all those soundtracks that were released. Wheter or not the themes had the opportunity to shine in their films as they deserved it and wheter or not the composer allowed himself to play with it in different parts, variations, deriavated motifs, strong instrumentations,.. is another question - but I think, over all, those themes were handled very well.

    The first thing what brought me into the wonderful world of film music was how different - yet as emotional, harmonic and beautiful - it sounded as classic music. The difference was probably that contamporary thing, the influence of pop music, of big melodies and the use of electronic samples and elements that added a special layer to the whole thing. The "Zimmer sound" doesn't sound as fresh and enjoyable to me as it used to do, but it remains effective. He knows how to push the right buttons to please the machine that is called mainstream audience and he does that well. His score for At World's End was my favourite score of the year. Talking about themes and developing them, I think he played wonderfully with Jacks theme and the different parts of the love theme. (Yes, he composed a love theme with an ABand C part: how much better can it get?) Some people here just got scared when they compared the batman scores and they were suprised that things had changed. Well, nothing remains the same.

    I do think "his sound" has made an influence and I do think he has been a dominant factor in film music in general. I know, if you put all his big hits year after year, it doesn't seem that way and I know ha was not involved with bond nor harry potter franchises, but that's just one way of putting it. Other ways to determinate if a composer is dominant is by reading the reviews that mention a specific composers name on the internet. Zimmer is, next to John Williams (who's always referred to when he's on a franchise) as it seems to me, a name that comes back very often. When talking about how afwul the Pirates films where as mass entertainment, his name was mentioned as being responsible for the "bombastic score". Now, in all the praise for The Dark Knight film, (pseudo) critics want to name every aspect of the filmmaking and refer to his name too (often forgetting JNH). He's made a name, much much more than Newman or Silvestri. He had won an oscar. His records sell high. Other elements are how often you hear (his) film music on non-related public events or tv-shows. For instance, the Rock theme in dum reality tv like Crusoe Island, to make the program exciting. Or ice skating and rope skipping shows. (I can garantuee, it can drive you mad sometimes. If I see another kid performing his tricks on "He's a Pirate" i'll blow his head of crazy ) On tv in Belgium, Amelie Poulain and Pearl Harbor are used a lot too, for instance.

    (I hope I didn't repeated others on this topic too much and I didn't brought up stuff that already has been contradicted - I only read trough most of the technical posts vertically.)
  9. omaha wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    I think atonal techniques should stay in filmmusic and concert music, but not as an aim in and of itself, but as a technique. Then I love it. For example, I love Horner's atonal sensibilities in action music, I love Goldenthal with his methods.


    And why is Zimmer your favorite?
    Serious question. I don't mean anything by it.


    Good question really. I think that he clicks with me emotionally and there is also the nostalgic element - The Rock and The Lion King were the very first soundtracks I've bought with THe Rock being the first one I bought consciously. I tend to grow tired with some tricks of his, but then again he shocks me with works like The Thin Red Line, Hannibal, Black Hawk Down, The Ring or Da Vinci Code. He's a good theme writer.

    Also I like Zimmer so much, because I think he is the composer who developed the most in film music. If you compare orchestrations in Bird on a Wire to orchestrations in Pirates of the Caribbean 3, you will see that he learnt a lot, from listening (and discovering more classical influences than Mozart, admittedly), his collaborators, maybe other scores, maybe temp-track, I don't know. But the thing is that now he can write a basically orchestral score that doesn't make me cringe when it comes to arrangement and, when I look at Bird on a Wire or even Black Rain, he did in his old works. He also learnt some avant-garde techniques, as showcased by Black Hawk Down or Tears of the Sun. How his orchestrations became better is best seen by Spanglish and At World's End. I would say that he wouldn't be capable of such stuff back in 1995 even.

    I also like his electronic sounds. Except the Batman interviews, I also love to read his interviews.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2008
    The music, or whatever they call it for Dark Knight, was fine as far as the film was concerned. Let me remind all of you I'm 61 and far from the target audience. Having said that I did enjoy the film for what it was. I doubt it will win any acting awards no matter what people say about Heath Ledger and his performance. Would I ever pull the CD off the shelf and give it a spin for anything other than research, nope.
    Thomas smile
    listen to more classical music!
    •  
      CommentAuthorelenewton
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2008
    I just listened to the "complete" edition of Zimmer's The Last Samurai (yes, there's an unmentionable floating around with almost the complete score). And it caused some headaches, surprisingly. I mean, I used to enjoy it a lot. When I was jogging daily a couple years ago, I would listen to it for an hour and feel extremely satisfied. But at this moment, I just want to switch to Shearmur's Sky Captain or my head is gonna explode... Maybe this is due to too much coffee...
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2008 edited
    Timon wrote

    - how the music works in films these days. I don't complain about that. Turning back to the old ways of composing would only hurt a film. Consider why Yared was replaced on Troy. Wet dreams from traditional score fans are nightmares for contemporary filmmakers.



    There wasn't the slightest of right or spot-on when it comes to the reaction of the dickheads that were in charge of Troy's music. There wasn't anything old-school in the score, it's just that it wasn't the modern teenage-aiming kind of score that was beginning to evolve into the Iron Mans and 300s and the Death Races of today and which they were clearly looking for; despite the fact that they ended up with a "lighter" imitation by Horner in the end. The score to TROY by Yared, was musically one of the best scores produced in the last 10 years or so and if you sit down and carefully listen to it you'll see that it's not the fact that it was rejected and the buzz that followed that actually make it such a brilliant score. If only the current world of film music had more scores coming out like that.



    - What the released music on albums sounds like. Some of the music does not sound well as a stand alone listening experience. Speaking as an aspirant director, I prefer to have a bad score that works well in a good film than the other way around. And sadly for Goldsmith I am more thrilled to look for filmmusic from popular titles.

    (Yet with all the fora like this one, the review sites and all the other opportunities, quality rises to the surface of the water anyway - which was probably a weird way of putting it. biggrin There are numorous tracks that reached me from films that I have never seen. Some of those films I will avoid, sometimes I will want to see how a certain track is used in a particular film. For instance, Tarawa from JNewtonHoward. It can turn out to be a big dissapointment too - I think of the Paycheck score from Powell. It's the unique thing of score afficionado's, we enjoy the music apart from the film.)



    Not sure if i got what you're saying here, but i fail to see how TARAWA from SNOW FALLING CEDARS (JNH) can have the slightest "turn off" element in it, outside the movie it accompanies? The whole score - and the said piece, is a wonderful achievement for the composer (minus the ARVO PART's fratres for strings obvious references all over it). Same goes for Powell's PAYCHECK, one of the best scores he ever produced, both on CD and in the movie.



    Considering those recent (in 5 years) scores, I think its going very well. There's still a lot of good music that is released, even the more obscure stuff, and also for every taste. For me, I think composers like Giacchino and JNH are doing a great job - in a more traditional way. I think that the King Kong score, although it was a quick replacement job, was as good as anything that the current John williams would have had come up with. It was even better, compared with Williams' latest job for The Crystal Skull wich was pretty much a dissapointment, from the big hero of golden scores from the past. (Zimmer collaborator - Big hero from the golden age: 1-0) Seriously, I'm not a big connaisseur on all the techniques of composing, but something like "Defeat is always Momentary" always sounds very much like John Williams to me.



    These are the men who ARE doing a brilliant job; sad thing though, is to observe hordes of younger and obviously way less talented composers who write in the same style (on average) slowly but gradually taking on the big assignments.


    What I also most adore in scores, are the themes. I bought Horners music for Troy just for the splendid achilles theme (that wasn't even highly original when I come to think about it.) I gradually discovered the past scores - in the late nineties - with the big themes for star wars, dances with wolves, patton, north by northwest, lovestory, the untouchables, ..etc.


    Where is THAT kind of scores nowadays though?



    I do think "his sound" has made an influence and I do think he has been a dominant factor in film music in general. I know, if you put all his big hits year after year, it doesn't seem that way and I know ha was not involved with bond nor harry potter franchises, but that's just one way of putting it. Other ways to determinate if a composer is dominant is by reading the reviews that mention a specific composers name on the internet. Zimmer is, next to John Williams (who's always referred to when he's on a franchise) as it seems to me, a name that comes back very often. When talking about how afwul the Pirates films where as mass entertainment, his name was mentioned as being responsible for the "bombastic score". Now, in all the praise for The Dark Knight film, (pseudo) critics want to name every aspect of the filmmaking and refer to his name too (often forgetting JNH).



    The score to THE DARK KNIGHT works brilliantly in the movie, imo and the movie IS one of the best and most mature film-making examples to come out in the last 5 year or so; and if people forget JNH, it's because THE DARK KNIGHT IS Zimmer in the vast majority; the music shows it, their interviews reveal it.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorTimon
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote

    Not sure if i got what you're saying here, but i fail to see how TARAWA from SNOW FALLING CEDARS (JNH) can have the slightest "turn off" element in it, outside the movie it accompanies? The whole score - and the said piece, is a wonderful achievement for the composer (minus the ARVO PART's fratres for strings obvious references all over it). Same goes for Powell's PAYCHECK, one of the best scores he ever produced, both on CD and in the movie.


    What i meant.. I haven't seen snow falling on cedars. But I doubt that the track accompanies a scene with the same grandeur and epic qualities than the ones I have in mind when listening to the music alone. In the case of Paycheck, particular for the Hog chase part 1 and 2, I wish I had never seen the film. The music was just lost there. It was a big let down for me, and it degraded the score. It's like, say, eating this great pie, really tastefull, until you find out that it was made by a mongoloid, you know.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2008
    I have seen SNOW FALLING ON CEDARAS and although i did think it was a gorgeously looking film, still i don't remember much nor where the said piece was used so you're probably right about this film. Paycheck as a movie was weak anyway.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.