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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008 edited
    Oh, don´t get me wrong about this. I know as much as anyone how movies tend to override historical facts for entertainment value, but still, there is a lot to learn and experience from some movies, and I´d like to see your favourite ones, and which angle on history they do best, in your opinion.

    The idea for this discussion came up on another topic where Schindler´s List was introduced as Williams´ best movie, and that it should be used for education, so, here we go... let´s delve a bit deeper into this.

    Since it was already mentioned, what do you consider a good bunch of movies to show the whole madness of the Third Reich? My list would consist of Schindler´s List, The Pianist, and Downfall.

    For good movies about the madness of World War II, I would list The Boat, Stalingrad (another german movie from the Eighties), and, of course, Saving Private Ryan.

    What else is there...?

    I´d like to list the recent King Arthur (yeah, the Hans Zimmer one), but not for the obvious reasons (after all, no one knows whether Arthur ever lived at all), but for the disastrous events which followed the Fall of the Roman Empire: Of course, it´s Hollywood, but still you get the feeling across how it must be for a people if the well known military force that ruled your country for so long suddenly decides to abandon you if things get from bad to worse. When the Saxons arrived, the people of roman province of Brittania certainly faced a dark fate, and one can easily see how things like those still affect our times. What will happen if the US leave Iraq, or look at what happened in Somalia... of course, there are always very relevant movies about the actual thing, like Black Hawk Down or Three Kings, but I think the comparison with the events in King Arthur are valid, even if the latter one certainly is much moree entertainment than anything else.

    I´d like to mention Ridley Scott´s Kingdom of Heaven as well. As much as the movie changed historical facts, I think the general atmosphere was spot on. What did it mean exactly to live in the Holy Land during the Crusades?

    Then there is The Last Valley. Is there any better movie to show the madness of that war? During those thirty years, hell ruled supreme in my own and the neighboring countries, and how all things went down after a time, and nobody knew any longer what was right or wrong, what was sacrilege and what was true faith. A monster of a movie.

    So, I´d like to know what you think about those I mentioned, as well as see what you´ll dig up yourself.

    Oh, did I mention that most of these movies have excellent scores? wink
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008 edited
    Great thread Ralph, I particularly loved your recommendation of THE LAST VALLEY ( great John Barry score ) which is a seriously underrated gem.


    For the Vietnam war I'd name Apocolypse Now ( the madness ), Hamburger Hill ( futility ) and The Killing Fields ( genocide ) as must see films.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorBregje
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Life of Brian ? biggrin
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Bregje wrote
    Life of Brian ? biggrin


    ABSO-BLOODY-LUTELY Bregje! ABSOLUTELY!!! punk cool

    I'm on a "crusade" today and this film should be made a fixture of every school religious classes curriculum.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Bregje wrote
    Life of Brian ? biggrin


    biggrin
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  1. Bregje wrote
    Life of Brian ? biggrin

    I suggest a double feature with Gibson´s The Passion of the Christ. punk

    I love the Latin in it. biggrin
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Timmer wrote
    Bregje wrote
    Life of Brian ? biggrin


    ABSO-BLOODY-LUTELY Bregje! ABSOLUTELY!!! punk cool

    I'm on a "crusade" today and this film should be made a fixture of every school religious classes curriculum.


    I'm serious! I don't think your post was funny at all Bregje, this is the perfect film to fuel heated class debate and I like Ralph's suggestion of pairing it with Gibson's 'Passion'.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  2. Seriously? I think you´re right. Those two movies are sure to lead to a full-scale war between the differently educated class-mates. smile

    Beside that, I really think Gibson´s movie is worth watching out of a lot of reasons. The use of the original languages, the cinematography, the atmosphere, the score, the acting, all supreme. And after all, if you´re into this kind of stuff, it may affect you spiritually as well, regardless of the questionable details.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Timmer wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Bregje wrote
    Life of Brian ? biggrin


    ABSO-BLOODY-LUTELY Bregje! ABSOLUTELY!!! punk cool

    I'm on a "crusade" today and this film should be made a fixture of every school religious classes curriculum.


    I'm serious! I don't think your post was funny at all Bregje, this is the perfect film to fuel heated class debate and I like Ralph's suggestion of pairing it with Gibson's 'Passion'.


    Too much hanging out with Steven, you Sir. I told you only to have fun and drink beers with the man, not actually listen to what he's saying!
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Bregje wrote
    Life of Brian ? biggrin


    ABSO-BLOODY-LUTELY Bregje! ABSOLUTELY!!! punk cool

    I'm on a "crusade" today and this film should be made a fixture of every school religious classes curriculum.


    I'm serious! I don't think your post was funny at all Bregje, this is the perfect film to fuel heated class debate and I like Ralph's suggestion of pairing it with Gibson's 'Passion'.


    Too much hanging out with Steven, you Sir. I told you only to have fun and drink beers with the man, not actually listen to what he's saying!


    I was a beer guzzling atheistic womanizer long before he was even born!
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    For historical education, I greatly prefer books, as there are very few films out there that will favour historic accuracy over "bending the facts to suit the story".
    Now I don't mind dramatic license one bit, but the audience at large tends to forget it's not a history lesson and take the story facets at face value, values that incidentally tend to change over time (not so long ago, Indians were scalphunting savages. Now they're noble and oppressed earth worshippers. Not so long ago, Vietnam was invaded to safeguard it from an aggressive communist regime. Now its inhabitants seemingly consists solely of old men and children being consistently raped, mutilated and killed by American soldiers).

    This is why for eductaional purposes I greatly prefer films to cover ground that is uncommon: eras that aren't well known, or incidents that aren't common to discuss. THAT is what whets my appetite to learn more. For the great wars of the last century, or the well covered historical-political incidents, I prefer -again for educational purposes- documentaries over films.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Timmer wrote
    Bregje wrote
    Life of Brian ? biggrin


    ABSO-BLOODY-LUTELY Bregje! ABSOLUTELY!!! punk cool

    I'm on a "crusade" today and this film should be made a fixture of every school religious classes curriculum.


    I'm serious! I don't think your post was funny at all Bregje, this is the perfect film to fuel heated class debate and I like Ralph's suggestion of pairing it with Gibson's 'Passion'.


    Too much hanging out with Steven, you Sir. I told you only to have fun and drink beers with the man, not actually listen to what he's saying!


    Absolutely. I'd suggest listening to scientists (I just happen to agree with them).
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Martijn wrote
    For historical education, I greatly prefer books, as there are very few films out there that will favour historic accuracy over "bending the facts to suit the story".
    Now I don't mind dramatic license one bit, but the audience at large tends to forget it's not a history lesson and take the story facets at face value, values that incidentally tend to change over time (not so long ago, Indians were scalphunting savages. Now they're noble and oppressed earth worshippers. Not so long ago, Vietnam was invaded to safeguard it from an aggressive communist regime. Now its inhabitants seemingly consists solely of old men and children being consistently raped, mutilated and killed by American soldiers).

    This is why for eductaional purposes I greatly prefer films to cover ground that is uncommon: eras that aren't well known, or incidents that aren't common to discuss. THAT is what whets my appetite to learn more. For the great wars of the last century, or the well covered historical-political incidents, I prefer -again for educational purposes- documentaries over films.


    You know I agree with you Martijn but many kids these days ( and I know some ) yawn at the very mention of a documentary, a film can be more enticing and in many cases will lead one to want to uncover the truth behind a drama, it certainly did and does for me.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    I'd choose Iain Stewart's Earth: The Power Of The Planet over Roland Emmerich's The Day After Tomorrow any day! cheesy
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008 edited
    Steven wrote
    I'd choose Iain Stewart's Earth: The Power Of The Planet over Roland Emmerich's The Day After Tomorrow any day! cheesy



    As would any sane human being.

    Looking at Ralph's suggestions I'd replace Scott's dreary lump of a film kingdom of heaven with Terry Jones ( the 'Python' connection again wink ) excellent series THE CRUSADES.

    As for King Arthur? Only on my worst enemies mate! wink
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008 edited
    Timmer wrote
    Steven wrote
    I'd choose Iain Stewart's Earth: The Power Of The Planet over Roland Emmerich's The Day After Tomorrow any day! cheesy



    As would any sane human being.


    Indeed. But not only would I pick it over The Day After Tomorrow for its educational qualities, I'd also pick it for its entertainment value. 'The Power Of The Planet' is an awe inspiring series, more so than most stories* from a film can offer.

    *Including bullshit religious ones. wave biggrin
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Timmer wrote
    You know I agree with you Martijn but many kids these days ( and I know some ) yawn at the very mention of a documentary, a film can be more enticing and in many cases will lead one to want to uncover the truth behind a drama, it certainly did and does for me.


    I would argue against that that the current trend of docu-dramas fills that gap brilliantly.
    Walking With Dinosaurs of course being the pinnacle of the bunch. I'm seeing that used more and more in historical documentaries, and to great effect!

    In fact, I see more and more engrossing styles of documentary filming (Ken Burns, anyone?) that are fully capable of keeping one's attention!
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Martijn wrote
    Timmer wrote
    You know I agree with you Martijn but many kids these days ( and I know some ) yawn at the very mention of a documentary, a film can be more enticing and in many cases will lead one to want to uncover the truth behind a drama, it certainly did and does for me.


    I would argue against that that the current trend of docu-dramas fills that gap brilliantly.
    Walking With Dinosaurs of course being the pinnacle of the bunch. I'm seeing that used more and more in historical documentaries, and to great effect!

    In fact, I see more and more engrossing styles of documentary filming (Ken Burns, anyone?) that are fully capable of keeping one's attention!


    Again I can only agree with you and was about to rearrange what I wrote earlier after mentioning Jones THE CRUSADES to which I'd also add his series Medieval Lives.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008 edited
    Well, I was looking for "entertainment" movies and not documentaries. Most documentaries will beat almost any entertainment movie regarding to the educational value. But I agree to the statement that sometimes you won´t get certain people enduring a second of a documentary, so I still think movies (as in entertainment movies) can do good work if you get the right ones.

    But feel free, of course, to name great documentaries. I would almost immediately add The Silk Road, probably the one docu series most responsible for igniting interest in asian cultures during the Eighties. And then there´s a relatively new series, The Continent, which tells the story of Europe, beginning with its formation as a land mass and ending with its current status and environmental issues. Great stuff.

    Regarding to Kingdom of Heaven, it has a lot of historical facts wrong, but at least it´s based on facts that anyone interested can look up and not a collection of totally invented stuff. Beside that, there are few better movies about the Crusades (actually, is there one?), especially if you watch the Director´s Cut which is worlds ahead of FOX´s theatrical release. And there is loads of documentary stuff on the 4 disc DVd box, and the audio as well the many text commentaries tell the truth behind the movie. I don´t think you´ll find a "Hollywood" movie with better educational value regarding to the topic out there.

    The usefulness of King Arthur, however, is a matter I don´t dare to discuss, since i agree that it did almost nothing right, but again, I was talking about one specific aspect of it.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008 edited
    Maybe I'll check out the directors cut sometime? I was very put off by the mess that was the theatrical release and Orlando Bloom was a terrible piece of miscasting.

    I hope no one suggests BRAVEHEART!? I'm all for re-introducing being hung, drawn & quatered! wink
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthoromaha
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    A film that is not a war movie nor historic is The Siege. I think it would really spark discussion on morals. But also, to allow students to view how a threat of terrorism in the US could further escalate and change a way of life. This might be more for a sociology class.
  3. Guys, how about Tora! Tora! Tora!? It's fact-based and done by both Japanese and Americans. And a great score by Jerry Goldsmith too.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Guys, how about Tora! Tora! Tora!? It's fact-based and done by both Japanese and Americans. And a great score by Jerry Goldsmith too.


    A good one that. beer

    I would also add A Bridge Too Far, The Battle of Britain and The Longest Day.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008 edited
    Timmer wrote
    Maybe I'll check out the directors cut sometime? I was very put off by the mess that was the theatrical release and Orlando Bloom was a terrible piece of miscasting.

    Well, Orlando Bloom remains the same, of course... smile
    But there were so many things missing which are now included, Balian´s backstory is much better explained, and don´t get me started on Eva Green´s role, it had been raped in the FOX version. I think the Director´s Cut is really, really worth seeing.

    omaha wrote
    A film that is not a war movie nor historic is The Siege. I think it would really spark discussion on morals. But also, to allow students to view how a threat of terrorism in the US could further escalate and change a way of life. This might be more for a sociology class.

    Fantastic! You are so right. That movie´s script must have been written by Nostradamus himself
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      CommentAuthoromaha
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Master and Commander would be a good movie as well. Especially if it were a European History Class. Really good example of life on a Man-O-War during the Napoleonic war.

    Mutiny on The Bounty or The Bounty would be good as well. Many students may not like Mutiny on the Bounty because of how old it is. It would turn them off as much as a documentary would.

    How about Gallipoli with Gibson? A great example of trench warfare fighting. And one of the best WWI films out there, without going all the way back to all quiet on the western front.
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      CommentAuthoromaha
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Timmer wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Guys, how about Tora! Tora! Tora!? It's fact-based and done by both Japanese and Americans. And a great score by Jerry Goldsmith too.


    A good one that. beer

    I would also add A Bridge Too Far, The Battle of Britain and The Longest Day.


    Ah, all movies I adore. I hate how a lot of people my age just automatically hate older movies. There is so much to learn and enjoy.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Purely as a film, I'll gladly join Tim in endorsing The Longest Day (A great and very accurate portaryal of the Normandy invasion, and less burdened by sentiment than most other war dramas).

    That aside, I found great value in The Six Wives Of Henry VIII (an entertaining, wonderful and very powerful look at early Tudorian times);
    Cleopatra (-the Liz/Dickie one of course- A surprise entry, maybe. The thing is that it's historically extremely accurate... and I really like these mammoth films smile );
    Ghandi (a clever and largely accurate portrayal of the famed statesman, though more of interest to see the falling apart of colonialism and the Empire and very turbulent times in the east then for its title subject, which is treated slightly too reverent, in my opinion -though not half as hagiographical as politically correct monsters like Biko or JFK);
    Lawrence Of Arabia is of interest in the sense that it focuses on the middle east and the role of Arab tribes during the Great War (foreshadowing the many problems today), but its plodding pace will not be to everone's taste!

    That's just a handful off the top of my head.

    There are of course many more that may spark lively debate, -Chaplin's The Great Dictator springs to mind, or Wayne's The Alamo-, but the problem there is that these are not driven by historical accuracy or even educational value per se, but rather by philosophical, ethical or moral points of view (many of which of course greatly dependent on their time frame and creator!).
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    You might laugh, but being a Greek myself and having grown up with history, 300 is pretty close to what reportedly happened (minus the comic theatrics of course).
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  4. Timmer wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Guys, how about Tora! Tora! Tora!? It's fact-based and done by both Japanese and Americans. And a great score by Jerry Goldsmith too.


    A good one that. beer

    I would also add A Bridge Too Far, The Battle of Britain and The Longest Day.


    Yes, the British tradition of war epics smile.

    From American movies, I would also add Midway, I guess, which also had some objectivism to it. People just cared about it more than today.

    Don't make me go on about the Michael Bay film about the December 7th attack vomit
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthoromaha
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
    Hey... lets kill Michael Bay. With, an Explosion!!!!!!!!!!! shocked beer

    Okay, not really. But I'm close.