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- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017
https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ … e=59E5B97Ahttp://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017
But... even if they normally would take something like this seriously, they won't. IS is Sunni. He's Shi'a.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017 edited
So a 'militant' humanist is equatable to a militant Muslim?
No. Again, you seem to conflate two things. I'm saying that extremism can take many forms -- some in action, some in words. It is RHETORICS which concerns me here (esp. the 'hate' rhetoric). I'm not talking about militant [insert person of whatever creed], but militant rhetorics. Big difference.
We are taking great pains to delineate between the ideas coming from Islam. We hate ISLAMISM; political Islam. We hate those who wish to enforce Islamic beliefs on others. And, more generally, we hate any idea that flies in the face of a free, democratic society (of which there seem to be many within Islam, whether you like to admit it or not). That is worthy of all our disdain. Not naming the problem and obsfucating where it comes from is what ultimately creates the divide. We give fuel to those on the far right, and we confuse those on the left. It's perfectly okay to call out Islam when it does its worst. But you seem insistent that it isn't, and I can't for the life of me fathom why.
Easy. "Calling out Islam" is simply calling out in the wrong, or too wide, direction. Calling out extremist interpretations of Islam is more appropriate.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017 edited
That's what I'm doing. I've said it as plainly as I can: ISLAMISM (which comes from Islam). And if I am such an extremist, then why do I support Muslim reformers? Why do I support the right to be religious in the first place? In what way am I "extreme"? And what is wrong about hating the hateful parts of any religion?
It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to be labelled a hate-filled extremist simply by pointing out the obvious. -
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017 edited
Steven wrote
That's what I'm doing. I've said it as plainly as I can: ISLAMISM (which comes from Islam).
Yeah, you say that, but between the lines (and sometimes even within lines), your criticism often seems to be broader than that.
I label you an 'atheist extremist' because you're so vocal and harsh in your constant takedowns of religion. I'm not saying that because I'm a Christian myself (and somehow feel personally offended), but you have this need to assert the atheist position at any given opportunity, with violent vigour. Surely, that shouldn't come as a surprise to you? I would react the same way about some guy constantly harping on about the 'word of God' in a discussion.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017 edited
Have I asserted my atheism here I wonder? And when was the last time I got into a full blown discussion about God? If I am so fervent, you should be able to find thousands of recent* examples of me preaching about atheism. Good luck with that.
But since you bring it up, my sensitive friend, I am against faith-based religion in general...true. But they are not all quite as bad as each other all the time, and I reserve my ire for theocracy rather than 'religion' -since it is many things to many people- these days. Islam happens to be the problem child of religions where that is concerned.
*my teenage years are probably more in line with the angry atheist stereotype. But I cringe at those comments nowadays -
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017 edited
PawelStroinski wrote
https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ … e=59E5B97A
That is quite heartening to see, but even aside from this:
But... even if they normally would take something like this seriously, they won't. IS is Sunni. He's Shi'a., again: it'll take far, FAR more than one or two actually progressive imams.
It'll take a turning tide of (Islamic) public sentiment and an overall will to (actively) change things.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017
In an absolutely extraordinary development, it has emerged that one of the attackers on Saturday was previously featured in a documentary on tv about British extremists called "The Jihadi Next Door"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-4016377 … -extremism
I am struggling to comprehend why after every single attack a statement is made along the lines of "the attackers were all known to the police [or intelligence services]" - and this time, even more, he'd been known to tv documentary makers! - so why don't the police/intelligence services stop them? Arrest them? (Genuine question - I really can't get my head around it.) -
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017
Wow.
Either this is a true eye-opener to the utter inefficiency and ineffectivity of current anti-terrorism efforts -which I fear will be happily seized upon by certain political forces to impose even more restrictive measures that will do absolutely nothing but impede free movement, freedom of choice and pursuit of liberty and happiness for average citizens-, OR it's such a massive cock-up that heads will roll up to the highest level.
Can't really see any other option at current.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017 edited
One of the barriers to change is the term, "Islamaphobia" which is always bandied around in conjunction with such derogatory words as "racist" and "sexist". The term "Islamaphobia" suggests that criticism of the ideas of Islam is tantamount with attacking Muslims. That is ridiculous; as one person put it: saying that hating Islam equals hating Muslims is like saying hating cancer equals hating cancer patients.
But the genius of the word, "Islamaphobia" is that it suggests that hating the cancer IS hating the cancer patients (as long as that cancer is Islam; feel free to criticize other religions!) To whomever invented the term, I give you my begrudging salute; one can not but marvel at how brilliantly it equates opposition to
ideas with bigotry.
:/Bach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017
This happens, because people identify with their faiths, no matter what that faith is. Notice that the statements are identity-based "I am Christian/Muslim/Baha'i/Hindu". The only religion where a believer would say something would be probably a Buddhist (asked "are you Buddhist", they would - or at least should! - answer "if you say so").
In a deep believer, it becomes a part of the emotional core of a person. That's why cognitive dissonance is often resolved by simply rejecting the information that doesn't fit, I guess.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017 edited
While that may very well be true, Pawel, this is not a problem with "all faiths." There is only one religion for which people believe the criticism of its ideas equals the criticism of its constituents. No one believes criticism of Buddhism means hatred of Buddhists. Why have we afforded only Islam such protection against criticism?
I mean I'm really asking, why? I don't know.Bach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2017
James, I am ignorant of all detail but let be just say, that the mere fact that someone is part of a dangerous scene doesn't justify an arrest warrant. Tragic or ridiculous as that may seem in the present circumstances.
VolkerBach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
Aidabaida wrote
While that may very well be true, Pawel, this is not a problem with "all faiths." There is only one religion for which people believe the criticism of its ideas equals the criticism of its constituents. No one believes criticism of Buddhism means hatred of Buddhists. Why have we afforded only Islam such protection against criticism?
I mean I'm really asking, why? I don't know.
Long story short, because they didn't grow out of it and there is a confusion between ethnicity and religion. Which is also, actually, a point to discuss.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
What I fear is that it will take a dozen more terrorist attacks before that discussion actually happens.Bach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
This, THIS is what I'm talking about.
This kind of action -if perpetuated and stuck to- will make a difference!'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
Aidabaida wrote
One of the barriers to change is the term, "Islamaphobia" which is always bandied around in conjunction with such derogatory words as "racist" and "sexist". The term "Islamaphobia" suggests that criticism of the ideas of Islam is tantamount with attacking Muslims. That is ridiculous; as one person put it: saying that hating Islam equals hating Muslims is like saying hating cancer equals hating cancer patients.
But the genius of the word, "Islamaphobia" is that it suggests that hating the cancer IS hating the cancer patients (as long as that cancer is Islam; feel free to criticize other religions!) To whomever invented the term, I give you my begrudging salute; one can not but marvel at how brilliantly it equates opposition to
ideas with bigotry.
:/
But unfortunately, to those with Thor's mindset, no matter how many times you draw a distinction between citicism of ideas and people it invariably gets translated into 'Islamophobia'. Indeed a very clever and insidious word for tricking otherwise perfectly intelligent people. -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017 edited
Martijn wrote
This, THIS is what I'm talking about.
This kind of action -if perpetuated and stuck to- will make a difference!
I agree. Any lasting turn to the better will have to come from within the Muslim community. Those clerics have my respect for they do take some personal risk with going on public record like this. It's like standing up against the Mafia in Sicily.
VolkerBach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
Steven wrote
it invariably gets translated into 'Islamophobia'. Indeed a very clever and insidious word for tricking otherwise perfectly intelligent people.
I don't think it works but for a minority : even those who tend to use 'islamophobia' in the same way 'racist' and 'fascist' was bandied about in the eighties to simply invalidate anyone whose opinion you didn't agree with, are starting to notice they are in extremely suspect company (extremists and fundamentalists hoping to divert attention).
The major difference with the eighties is that religion-critical points are made much more coherently and cogently now, and that no religion is exempt. It is simply much harder to maintain it's all "just a bunch of extreme right wing nuts wanting to bring back the gas chambers" now, or that "they simply do not understand".
The argument has moved on and up.
That's why I'm not even bothered with that particular made-up disease any more. It means nothing, and no one (of consequence) actually believes that THAT is the real major problem in this day and age.
(With all the proper provisos: yes, there are people who have been targeting muslims without rhyme or reason; yes, there are angry, politically VERY dubious people who are pushing am extreme right-wing agenda who are latching on; yes, there are politicians who have ulterior agendas; yes, yes, yes. All true. But not the point.)'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017 edited
I hope you're right. But I still encounter the word more times than I'd like to, particularly in 'liberal' media. Perhaps if not the word, certainly its meaning. Even me, an extremist atheist, treads more carefully when critisicing or even talking about Islam in public, because I know that it's inclined to be taken the wrong way -- as evidenced by my Norwegian friend. (No, not that one. The less attractive one.) -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017 edited
There's no shame in treading carefully. Better than going off on a knee-jerk reaction.
I honestly see an "educational" role here (and I say that without any condescending intent).
As long as you/I/we don't lose our cool, and keep emphasising our words and analyses (rather than defending against what is perceived or interpreted), and are able to back them up by fact and proper reasoning, while at the same time also being open to the valid concerns of the "other side", the discussion WILL rise to a constructive level.
Yes, of course there's the "but feelings are facts too" Evergreen college brigade, but honestly, notwithstanding the extreme levels they consider themselves the vanguard of a new "age of Aquarius", they are just a very very very loud minority without any kind of clout and a mostly selfish, fearful vision of life, without any drive or empowerment to properly change anything.
They won't last a day out in the real world.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017 edited
That Evergreen college thing is messed up.
They won't last a day in the real world, so they're going to make trouble for those who actually can. They're going to say that the reason their diversity studies degree isn't making them 400k a year is because of the institutional bigotry, and they're going to riot for reforms that will make life harder for people who are actually working.
You know, I was out at the family farm of some friends, and we were sitting beside a fire, under a tent, making hamburgers over the fire, while meanwhile cows grazed in a nearby pasture, and it occurred to me how odd it was: these are the people feeding America, the people who work all day long to sow their fields and mow their massive lawn, and nobody ever thinks about them, nobody ever thanks them.
And then driving home, I thought about all the intersections that are kept well paved, and these long country roads that you can drive without getting into any trouble. And back in the suburbs, these streets that are kept safe by police. And it occurred to me that we should all just calm down a bit. You know what? For the most part, people get along pretty well.
I guess my only fear is that all the "very loud minorities" of extremist ideologies will mess up the 90% here that live in relative peace.Bach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
Some incident in Paris / France in front of Notre Dame, involving an individual attacking a police officer with a hammer.
VolkerBach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
Germanic thundergods reclaiming territory??'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017 edited
[On second thought I choose to delete this post.]Bach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
I defend Thor's right to be wrong. -
- CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
#NotAllNorwegiansBach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeJun 7th 2017
Aidabaida wrote
#NotAllNorwegians
Some levity amongst the madnessOn Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentTimeJun 7th 2017
Can confirm, #NotAllNorwegians -
- CommentTimeJun 7th 2017 edited
Isis attacked Iran's Parliament, 12 dead.
I wonder how many more attacks are left in 2017, but moreover, I wonder how long until something finally snaps, and how high the body count is going to get before we realize that our 'thoughts and prayers' don't mean anything unless backed by actions.Bach's music is heartless and robotic.