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- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017 edited
PawelStroinski wrote
And what do you think of the oft-given example of banning guns in Australia which led to a massive reduction of murders and suicides there?
hotly disputed issue. for example, suicides were already on the decline, and the gun ban didn't significantly change that. if you look at graphs charting suicides in Australia, the downward trend of suicides was not significantly accelerated or slowed by the gun ban, in fact, the only change was the spike in suicides by other methods than guns. (guess what, people who want to kill themselves find a way!)
in terms of homicides, the homicide rate in Australia was low and falling, and kept falling after the gun ban; scholars debate whether or not the ban really affected it. A 2007 British Journal of Criminology study and a 2008 University of Melbourne study both found the ban had no effect on homicides.
it seems a classic case of correlation =/= causation. suicides and homicides were low and had been plummeting, the gun ban may have helped, but it didn't, 'end gun violence'.
Not to mention that people can still get guns in Australia, you just have to go through bureaucracy. there's still 1 gun for every seven people there.
in terms of America adopting Australia's plan...
Vared Mehta points out, "Australia’s program netted, at the low end, 650,000 guns, and at the high end, a million. That was approximately a fifth to a third of Australian firearms. There are about as many guns in America as there are people: 310 million of both in 2009. A fifth to a third would be between 60 and 105 million guns. To achieve in America what was done in Australia, in other words, the government would have to confiscate as many as 105 million firearms."
America implementing Australia's plan would involve thousands of federal agents, heavily armed, going to thousands of homes in an attempt to round up millions of fire-arms. If we're going to discuss it, we need to be clear, this would be a massive, expensive,, messy operation.
in 2013, there were 500K - 3 Million uses of guns for defense in 2013, compared to 11K homicides (way too high, but 45-272 times less than the amount used for good).Bach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017 edited
OK, a lot has been said on this while I slept or was at work, and I'm not going to read all of it. I find it a bit confusing I started this out by defending the point of view of the Republican Party, and then getting argued against by a republican.
My final point on this matter is: whether you think gun control is the solution or not, the world watches as one of the biggest nations faces the one mass shooting after the other and there's a side of people who actually want to do something about it, and then there's the group of people who keeps arguing against change and just want to sit back and wait till it happens again. They slam down those that come up with ideas to improve the country, but instead of coming up with in their mind better solutions, to avoid such things, all they're able to do is criticise the group that actually wants to stop this from happening.
It sickens me. And we will have to go through this whole process of mourning once again in a few months and find new ways to say how fucking sorry we are because the nation itself cannot decide on a solution but is great at finding arguments against change.
America has become a fucking disgrace and as long as you continue to allow this to happen and do not get together to find a solution, there's nothing to be proud of.
I'm out. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017 edited
@BodbH: I get your frustration, but doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing. We can't defend ideas that will cause MORE of these shootings by saying, "At least we're doing something!" And lets be clear: these ideas will cause more shootings. Disarming the innocent makes them vulnerable.
Change for the worse is no better than doing nothing just because it is change. If your ship is trapped in ice, you don't set your ship on fire because at least you're doing something.Bach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017 edited
Aidabaida wrote
@BodbH: I get your frustration, but doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing. We can't defend ideas that will cause MORE of these shootings by saying, "At least we're doing something!"
Fine. Then do nothing. Just sit back if that helps you sleep at night and vote on new silencers because God forbid you can actually hear those mass shootings next time. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
Don't worry, Donald Stump has said he will make America great again. But he has also said to grab women by their pussy..."considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
BobdH wrote
Fine. Then do nothing. Just sit back if that helps you sleep at night.
well it certainly wouldn't help me sleep at night to know I'm advocating ideas that will make a bad situation worse.Bach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
In all seriousness, nothing will ever change on that issue. There's too many powerful people handling the strings behind the scenes."considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
Aidabaida wrote
BobdH wrote
Fine. Then do nothing. Just sit back if that helps you sleep at night.
well it certainly wouldn't help me sleep at night to know I'm advocating ideas that will make a bad situation worse.
I don't care what the solution is, COME UP WITH A SOLUTION instead of using all your energy on criticising solutions! -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017 edited
BobdH wrote
I don't care what the solution is, COME UP WITH A SOLUTION instead of using all your energy on criticising solutions!
ok, sure. I have no expertise, but here's what I would do.
We have a massive mental health problem in the United States that is being ignored. If I were president, I would divert Tax Dollars being used on useless projects to subsidizing researching into mental health.
We need to remove restrictions on guns in places like Chicago. Stop disarming the innocent. More guns in the hands of the citizenry almost always equals less crime.
Start working on re calibrating America's moral compass. This is a massive endeavor, but it starts in the homes of the people; in teaching children how to be kind, in engaging with a community in real life. Let's be clear, this is about culture far more than it is about laws. Culture determines politics, not the other way around.Bach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
We need to remove restrictions on guns in places like Chicago. Stop disarming the innocent. More guns in the hands of the citizenry almost always equals less crime.
Well, if nothing else, it's intriguing to have our first and only right-winger here (as far as I know). Takes some pressure off of me everytime I like something that nobody else does, or hate all over C&C releases.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
Thor wrote
Well, if nothing else, it's intriguing to have our first and only right-winger here (as far as I know). Takes some pressure off of me everytime I like something that nobody else does, or hate all over C&C releases.
every time I wonder why someone doesn't see my point, I think about how I don't see your point when it comes to Junkie XLBach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
Thor wrote
We need to remove restrictions on guns in places like Chicago. Stop disarming the innocent. More guns in the hands of the citizenry almost always equals less crime.
Well, if nothing else, it's intriguing to have our first and only right-winger here (as far as I know). Takes some pressure off of me everytime I like something that nobody else does, or hate all over C&C releases.
I'm a member of a moderately conservative party. Well, from an American point of view it would probably be rated as being socialist.
I'm afraid, we all have our national fetishes. In Germany it's the no-speed-limit autobahn. Regarding gun control I'm decidedly with you, though.
VolkerBach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
It's a debate we can never convince the opposite side of change. With rational elements, examples of every other single developed country in the world, ...
For all the conspiracies that I see appearing in rather the right wing media, with things like Big Pharma, or thousands of scientists working together regarding the "climate change scam", ... it apparently is not a problem at all that the the NRA uses loads of money to lobby and influence media and people for laws that stop change. Unbelievable.Kazoo -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017 edited
Captain Future wrote
I'm afraid, we all have our national fetishes. In Germany it's the no-speed-limit autobahn.
That is also true.
We all know waffles and beer and fries and chocolate are unhealthy but they can never forbid those!!! Or I will ... I will ... do something bad!Kazoo -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
In England, we like to get drunk. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
You can take the waffles and fries and chocolate, but NEVER the beer!!I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
Thor wrote
You can take the waffles and fries and chocolate, but NEVER the beer!!
For once we agree. -
- CommentAuthorEdmund Meinerts
- CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017
You can have my beer if I get your chocolate. -
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017
Steven wrote
In England, we like to get drunk.
Luckily "you spilled my pint" doesn't end with someone possibly pulling a piece and blowing your brains out.
God bless the NRA.On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017
Edmund Meinerts wrote
You can have my beer if I get your chocolate.
I need to be your personal friend EdOn Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017
From all the national fetishes, i prefer japanese and sometimes german fetishes. GiggidyLove Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017
Thor wrote
We need to remove restrictions on guns in places like Chicago. Stop disarming the innocent. More guns in the hands of the citizenry almost always equals less crime.
Well, if nothing else, it's intriguing to have our first and only right-winger here (as far as I know). Takes some pressure off of me everytime I like something that nobody else does, or hate all over C&C releases.
Crime is the key word here. It doesn't equal less death. It just makes more of killings legal.
Also, we are talking about stopping, specifically, mass shootings. Many of the mass shooters had no previous criminal records. And in quite a few cases (especially school massacres) the weapons were acquired legally. The fact that the vetting process is much more strict might be a successful deterrent.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017
Thor wrote
We need to remove restrictions on guns in places like Chicago. Stop disarming the innocent. More guns in the hands of the citizenry almost always equals less crime.
Well, if nothing else, it's intriguing to have our first and only right-winger here (as far as I know). Takes some pressure off of me everytime I like something that nobody else does, or hate all over C&C releases.
Looking at it from outside, the original comments just seem bizarre.
Removing gun restrictions would improve things? If crime would reduce because more guns are about perhaps shootings would increase (people defending themselves against minor crimes against them).
Also, with the argument that having guns offers protection, how many civilians have been able to fire back at someone carrying out these atrocities? Is the answer 'no one'? And if that's the case is it because people can't be in public with a concealed firearm? Then the law needs to be changed to allow everyone to carry a firearm, 'just in case'? Now THAT would a horrific prospect.The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017 edited
FalkirkBairn wrote
Looking at it from outside, the original comments just seem bizarre.
Removing gun restrictions would improve things? If crime would reduce because more guns are about perhaps shootings would increase (people defending themselves against minor crimes against them).
Also, with the argument that having guns offers protection, how many civilians have been able to fire back at someone carrying out these atrocities? Is the answer 'no one'? And if that's the case is it because people can't be in public with a concealed firearm? Then the law needs to be changed to allow everyone to carry a firearm, 'just in case'? Now THAT would a horrific prospect.
there are some towns where all people are required to carry guns, and there's about zero crime, one murder every twenty years.
as to your question to, 'how many civilians are able to fire back'? Well 500,000 to 3,000,000 uses of guns as protection were recorded in 2013.
i wouldn't ask anyone to watch seventeen minutes of someone they disagree with, but if you are interested, this is a video going through Jimmy Kimmel's monologue on guns and showing how the various ideas the left proposed wouldn't have helped, as well as clearing up common misconceptions about, the "no-fly zone" and the "gun show loophole". Shapiro is a bit grating for some people, but its a well put together assemblage of the major myths about guns and their responses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxJWVWXOHPABach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017
So, again, 500 thousand to 3 million people were shot at legally as opposed to illegally.
And is the law that open carry is not a right, but required, actually really enforced? As in, if I walk in that town without a gun, not even having one, would I get actually arrested for that? I've heard of some towns still requiring people to take a gun to church, but I don't think any law enforcement officer would actually follow up on that.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017 edited
PawelStroinski wrote
So, again, 500 thousand to 3 million people were shot at legally as opposed to illegally.
does that not make a difference to you? If I shoot at someone to steal their money and then you shoot at someone to stop them from murdering you, I don't think we're morally comparable...
And is the law that open carry is not a right, but required, actually really enforced? As in, if I walk in that town without a gun, not even having one, would I get actually arrested for that? I've heard of some towns still requiring people to take a gun to church, but I don't think any law enforcement officer would actually follow up on that.
from what I read the law is not strictly enforced; half of the reason crime is down may be psychological. if you are a criminal, you are less likely to target a house that has a gun.Bach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentAuthorEdmund Meinerts
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017
Aidabaida wrote
PawelStroinski wrote
So, again, 500 thousand to 3 million people were shot at legally as opposed to illegally.
does that not make a difference to you? If I shoot at someone to steal their money and then you shoot at someone to stop them from murdering you, I don't think we're morally comparable...
Can't we have a scenario where nobody shoots at anybody? -
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017 edited
Edmund Meinerts wrote
Can't we have a scenario where nobody shoots at anybody?
sure, and that would be the goal of any gun control program. but again, outlawing or seizing guns wouldn't create a world where nobody is shooting at anybody, it would create a world where the only people shooting are criminals and the government.
you need to realize that in America, we do not trust the government. the entire American system is built off the idea that government is a necessary evil. i don't think things are the same in Europe.
faced with the choice of allowing everyone (except convicted criminals and the severely mentally ill) to have a gun, or centralizing guns in the hands of the government and those who don't obey laws, I will choose the former every time.
that does not mean, however, that I advocate doing nothing to stop these mass shootings. i have plenty of ideas. the problem is that immediately after any tragedy like the one in Las Vegas, the response from the left is to "DO SOMETHING!" even if that something will make the situation worse.
if I see a fire, I would rather do nothing than throw gasoline on it in the name of 'doing something!'Bach's music is heartless and robotic. -
- CommentAuthorEdmund Meinerts
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017 edited
Aidabaida wrote
you need to realize that in America, we do not trust the government. the entire American system is built off the idea that government is a necessary evil. i don't think things are the same in Europe.
Yeah, I know, and that's stupid. If you don't trust the government, why not change things? Elect people who have earned your trust and who you think will change things for the better. I'm perfectly happy with the thought of a world where the only people with guns are criminals (hopefully as little as possible, of course) and the government, so long as that government is a benevolent and trustworthy one that works for and is held accountable by the people. Better yet would be a world where no guns are necessary, of course.
But throwing up your hands and giving in to the right-wing ideal of "government is evil, better buy a gun so I can look out for myself and nobody else" will not ever make society a better place. Human beings are stronger together than individually, don't you think? -
- CommentTimeOct 4th 2017 edited
Edmund Meinerts wrote But throwing up your hands and giving in to the right-wing ideal of "government is evil, better buy a gun so I can look out for myself and nobody else" will not ever make society a better place. Human beings are stronger together than individually, don't you think?
that's probably our fundamental disagreement. 'stronger together' works in the face of a common enemy, but in general, I believe that society is driven by a few people with strong visions and the will to make them come to pass.
think of it like soundtrack music. one single score by one single auteur could drastically change the face of the field.
so, to be sure, galileo was standing on the shoulders of giants, but that doesn't negate his accomplishment.
i believe government ought to leave people alone so that they might reach their full potential.
Uber and Lyft have done more to prevent drunk driving than the past 100 years of governmental regulations.
If you don't trust the government, why not change things? Elect people who have earned your trust and who you think will change things for the better.
yeah, a group of about 60 million people tried. it was called, "electing Donald Trump" but SURRRRRRPRISE he might not have been the best choice to change things. like obama and bush before him, he's just expanded the power of the executive branch and been mired in corruption and lies. he wasn't an "outsider", he's just an excellent salesman who presented himself as one.
i'd love to have a trustworthy president who would actually decrease the power of the government and reign in our ridiculous, expensive bureaucracy, but the only Republican candidate who actually had a good track record of doing what he said he would, Ted Cruz, comes off like a slimy used-car salesman.
but now we're just getting sidetracked into why government is untrustworthy. my point is that many americans don't trust the government to have all the guns, which is why an Australia-esque seizure is thankfully not going to happen.Bach's music is heartless and robotic.