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GUSTAVO SANTAOLALLA

General Discussions » GUSTAVO SANTAOLALLA (Posts 31 to 60 of 103)

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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2009 edited
    First of all, I definitely disagree with Doug Fake above. Now, I DO agree that there is controversy over BABEL, mainly that there is so little original music, so to give the award for "Best Original Music" is a bit far-fetched. But the music that was used was VERY good and enhanced the experience both intellectually and emotionally, so if the award was renamed "Best Application of Music" or something, I would have no problem whatsoever with it. It's a superb film/music/sound amalgam that has quickly become a "favourite" as analytical object in film studies.

    Erik:

    Again, a very good theme but little of anything else. Wanna listen to a western score with something to say on a limited budget with limited instruments... check out Mark McKenzie's Frank and Jesse.


    A fine score, I'm sure, but it would have turned BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN into a much more pedestrial, run-of-the-mill "feelgood" Western film, and it really is anything but. At some point one has to leave the "oh, but what if it was scored THIS way instead?" line of thought, and look at how it IS, what the music DOES as it exists, not as how it could have been. If one goes into the film with that kind of open mind, you'd just might be surprised.

    But of course, if the film didn't strike you; if the music didn't leave an impression on you, that's not something I can argue. That's a personal preference. All I want to "kill" is the superficial dismissal of the score just because it isn't more traditional or orchestral - like EVERY OTHER Western score.

    Southall:

    I agree with this, but each of your five points strikes me as being something which should be expected of any film score, and not an indication of an outstanding, Award-worthy one


    It should be EXPECTED, yes, but certainly isn't a regular feature. There aren't many other scores out there in the history of film that approach an epic, although DIFFERENT Western tale the same way. Eastwood's/Niehaus' THE UNFORGIVEN comes to mind, but even this is far more traditional in style and approach.

    It's because it DARES to counter convention that it deserved its prize. And because it's so effective in the film from both an intellectual and emotional viewpoint. How interesting it was a soundtrack album or as pure music has no relevance whatsoever. That's for the soundtrack reviews to assess, and depends on if you like that kind of music or not.
    I am extremely serious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2009 edited
    Thor wrote
    Erik:

    Again, a very good theme but little of anything else. Wanna listen to a western score with something to say on a limited budget with limited instruments... check out Mark McKenzie's Frank and Jesse.


    A fine score, I'm sure, but it would have turned BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN into a much more pedestrial, run-of-the-mill "feelgood" Western film, and it really is anything but. At some point one has to leave the "oh, but what if it was scored THIS way instead?" line of thought, and look at how it IS, what the music DOES as it exists, not as how it could have been. If one goes into the film with that kind of open mind, you'd just might be surprised.


    Good lord, Thor. Again, you are putting words into my mouth. I didn't say I wanted Brokeback's music to sound like Frank and Jesse... I said I wanted the music to have some sort of feeling, significance, dramatic arc like Frank and Jesse which like Brokeback used a small ensemble of instruments - albeit McKenzie did managed to score 15 minutes of thunderous action material - but that's besides the point. Santa's entire score to Brokeback (lasting what 13 minutes) is rather empty emotionally and very repetitive. Can't say a lot of thought or creativity went into the material.

    As for having an open mind... again, I repeat, I went into this film without having heard the score so I had no idea what to expect however I did have a feeling that it was going to be a smaller scale score based on Santa's previous efforts. I have no problems with score of that sort. Unforgiven was score in such a manner and I liked that one a lot. But after all that was said and done all I wanted to do was turn the radio on, hear a catchy tune so I could get that Brokeback theme out of my head. Santa just continuously bashed me over the head with that thing.

    Also, let's say the music was deleted from the film what kind of effect would it have? You know what, I don't think the music would be missed and wouldn't change the film one bit. Can't say that about other great scores!

    As for the film... I liked it... a lot.

    Thor wroteAll I want to "kill" is the superficial dismissal of the score just because it isn't more traditional or orchestral - like EVERY OTHER Western score.


    I agree!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    Erik Woods wrote
    Santa's entire score to Brokeback (lasting what 13 minutes) is rather empty emotionally and very repetitive. Can't say a lot of thought or creativity went into the material.


    Actually, I'm quite sure every single note and its use was carefully planned and thought out in advance. Both Ang Lee and Gustavo knew what they were going for. But that's beside the point, really. If you didn't feel a connection there, that's fine. Again, we're all put together differently and it's only normal that we react differently to things. But I, personally, think that its repetitiveness was one of the music's STRENGTHS in this particular film. It just made it all the more memorable.

    So as long as we're now into "like it"/"didn't like it" terrain, all's fair in love and war (or however it goes), I guess.
    I am extremely serious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    Thor wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    Santa's entire score to Brokeback (lasting what 13 minutes) is rather empty emotionally and very repetitive. Can't say a lot of thought or creativity went into the material.


    Actually, I'm quite sure every single note and its use was carefully planned and thought out in advance.


    In advance as in before anything was shot... then you'd be correct... which is yet another issue I have with score. It wasn't written to picture. Anyone, yes, anyone can write or perform music beforehand and have it tracked and/or edited to make it fit or work in a film. But a true film composer looks at the scene after it's edited and has to decide what will enhance it. That's the challenge of film music not what Gustavo did.

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    Agree Erik.
    listen to more classical music!
  6. Thor wrote
    4. By the end of the film, the recurring theme begins to haunt you. Throughout the film, it has been presented sometimes unfulfilled, sometimes more elaborate. But due to the sheer repetition, it becomes "one" with the narrative to an extent that hasn't been seen many times. Except maybe Raksin's LAURA or some of Williams' character "call cards" (SUPERMAN, INDY).


    Or THE THIRD MAN. Or PATTON. Or PAPILLON. Or IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE. Or 2046. Or quite a few of Godard's films (Breathless, from memory?). Or THE RED TENT. Or DOCTOR ZHIVAGO. Or SPELLBOUND. Or any of the many other largely monothematic, minimal variation scores.
    Come on, Thor. It's not that uncommon in the history of film music! wink

    And personally, for me, Mychael Danna should have scored BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN. Not because I want to hear RIDE WITH THE DEVIL. But because I want to hear what the composer who got into the skin of THE ICE STORM so exquisitely (a 17 minute score, but a truly exemplary one) could have done with a film with such potential. Danna has proved himself time and again to be a composer who can tread very softly when he contributes to a film. And he is more versatile than our friend Gustavo.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
  7. I should take a listen to The Ice Storm. I just LOVED the movie.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    franz_conrad wrote
    Thor wrote
    4. By the end of the film, the recurring theme begins to haunt you. Throughout the film, it has been presented sometimes unfulfilled, sometimes more elaborate. But due to the sheer repetition, it becomes "one" with the narrative to an extent that hasn't been seen many times. Except maybe Raksin's LAURA or some of Williams' character "call cards" (SUPERMAN, INDY).


    Or THE THIRD MAN. Or PATTON. Or PAPILLON. Or IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE. Or 2046. Or quite a few of Godard's films (Breathless, from memory?). Or THE RED TENT. Or DOCTOR ZHIVAGO. Or SPELLBOUND. Or any of the many other largely monothematic, minimal variation scores.
    Come on, Thor. It's not that uncommon in the history of film music! wink

    And personally, for me, Mychael Danna should have scored BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN. Not because I want to hear RIDE WITH THE DEVIL. But because I want to hear what the composer who got into the skin of THE ICE STORM so exquisitely (a 17 minute score, but a truly exemplary one) could have done with a film with such potential. Danna has proved himself time and again to be a composer who can tread very softly when he contributes to a film. And he is more versatile than our friend Gustavo.


    Sometimes I really like Michael's contributions to this board! punk

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
  9. Who doesn't? smile
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    I always read what insight he has to offer.
    Thomas
    listen to more classical music!
  11. Before you guys canonize me, you want to wait until European markets open and Thor blasts a gaping hole in my retort. wink
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    Wait. Thor just admitted that I know more about the history of Norwegian Music than he does. What does that say.
    listen to more classical music!
  13. Well... I opened up a can of worms last night. Sorry tongue

    It was the end of a long day and I was in a conversation online about oscar winners and of course I had to mention Gustavo as one of my all time frustrating oscar winners. Don't get me started on actors and directors. lol

    The person I was speaking with mentioned Babel as being a great score to which naturally I replied by asking what parts of it did he enjoy the most. So what do you think he singled out? Sakamoto would be proud. I of course mentioned the truth about certain portions of the score and told my friend that the score to the Godfather by Nino Rota had been disqualified for a non-original theme Nino had used that could be traced to a previous film he had done. Yet Babel was allowed the nomination and win for what I believe was a bit deceptive for an original score. I felt that those who voted for the score weren't exactly aware of what was original and what wasn't and am not sure that if the original content was singled out if they would have voted the same way.

    It didn't help that at the oscars itself when they played the score nominees, they showed Gustavo playing his iguazu which of course was in the score, but not original music and can be heard in the movie the Insider and the show Deadwood. Also the clip from the movie was that of the asian girl which in the film itself tended to be followed by Sakamoto's works or some other non-Gustavo composer. So it told me that there was some confusion.

    With Brokeback I was fine with minimalism in regards to the instruments and felt the guitar suited the theme of the film, but the score was very short and didn't exactly have much variation at all. If they had replaced it with a few more Willie Nelson songs, I don't think the film would have suffered. That's telling considering it won an oscar for best original score.

    A year later with Babel all I could think was how fortunate it was for Gustavo to have found a movie that could use his minimalism with guitars again because it couldn't be used on every film. Or could it in Gustavo's world? Of course then when listening to the soundtrack you realize it barely could be used for that film since half the soundtrack was non-original music. His contributions could almost be considered incidental or filler.

    I just will never believe he wrote the two best original scores for 2005 and 2006.
    I'm your Piper at the gates of dawn.
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    Erik Woods wrote
    Thor wrote
    Erik Woods wrote
    Santa's entire score to Brokeback (lasting what 13 minutes) is rather empty emotionally and very repetitive. Can't say a lot of thought or creativity went into the material.


    Actually, I'm quite sure every single note and its use was carefully planned and thought out in advance.


    In advance as in before anything was shot... then you'd be correct...


    That was of course not what I meant. The score was composed just like any other score, with just as much thought going into it. I don't know why you would think otherwise? Do you seriously think Ang Lee said to Gustavo: "Hey, just throw in some random guitar noodlings here and there, and we're ready to go!"?
    I am extremely serious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009 edited
    franz_conrad wrote
    Or THE THIRD MAN. Or PATTON. Or PAPILLON. Or IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE. Or 2046. Or quite a few of Godard's films (Breathless, from memory?). Or THE RED TENT. Or DOCTOR ZHIVAGO. Or SPELLBOUND. Or any of the many other largely monothematic, minimal variation scores.
    Come on, Thor. It's not that uncommon in the history of film music! wink


    No. But it is ONE of the score's strengths. You'd have to look at the COMBINATION of all my reasons, franz.

    It's like if you had a positive review of STAR WARS, and one of the reasons given for its success was "the variation and scope of thematic material", you could easily rip that out and say that it could be applied to tons of other films as well.

    Fallacy of composition!
    I am extremely serious.
  16. And you are ignoring the very thing I was criticizing, which was not your support of BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, but the fallacious statement within.

    Quoth he:

    Thor wrote
    4. By the end of the film, the recurring theme begins to haunt you. Throughout the film, it has been presented sometimes unfulfilled, sometimes more elaborate. But due to the sheer repetition, it becomes "one" with the narrative to an extent that hasn't been seen many times. Except maybe Raksin's LAURA or some of Williams' character "call cards" (SUPERMAN, INDY).



    Ah, but it has! Many times. wink
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    franz_conrad wrote
    And you are ignoring the very thing I was criticizing, which was not your support of BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, but the fallacious statement within.

    Quoth he:

    Thor wrote
    4. By the end of the film, the recurring theme begins to haunt you. Throughout the film, it has been presented sometimes unfulfilled, sometimes more elaborate. But due to the sheer repetition, it becomes "one" with the narrative to an extent that hasn't been seen many times. Except maybe Raksin's LAURA or some of Williams' character "call cards" (SUPERMAN, INDY).



    Ah, but it has! Many times. wink



    Well, if you're going to split "linguistic" straws on that particular point, I can easily specify. I still say that in the overall scheme of things, this total osmosis of environment and characters wrapped up in one strong theme belongs to the exceptions rather than the rule. It is not merely applauding the success of a mono-thematic score, but praising its place in our public consciousness. You mention some other "classics" in the same vein (PATTON, THIRD MAN, PAPILLON, DR. ZHIVAGO in particular), and I'm totally with you on that. I'm sure there are others too. My point is that this score belongs in THAT exclusive company. Perhaps I should have phrased myself differently...as in "to an extent that places it alongside other "iconic" mono-thematic scores in film history".
    I am extremely serious.
  18. I forgot to include CHINATOWN. How silly of me.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    franz_conrad wrote
    I forgot to include CHINATOWN. How silly of me.


    Successful, yeah, but not really in the same company, IMO.
    I am extremely serious.
  20. There's only really one theme there, and it recalls the film - and a character's state - fairly instantly for those who've seen it. Unless you're talking about contemporary public consciousness as the discriminating point. In which case you could chop half the scores off my list at a pinch.
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    Thor wrote
    My point is that this score belongs in THAT exclusive company. Perhaps I should have phrased myself differently...as in "to an extent that places it alongside other "iconic" mono-thematic scores in film history".


    You are still off your rocker! Brokeback Mountain iconic...

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    franz_conrad wrote
    There's only really one theme there, and it recalls the film - and a character's state - fairly instantly for those who've seen it. Unless you're talking about contemporary public consciousness as the discriminating point.


    I do at that particular point, since we were talking about its Oscar worthiness.
    I am extremely serious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    Erik Woods wrote
    Thor wrote
    My point is that this score belongs in THAT exclusive company. Perhaps I should have phrased myself differently...as in "to an extent that places it alongside other "iconic" mono-thematic scores in film history".


    You are still off your rocker! Brokeback Mountain iconic...

    -Erik-


    It is indeed. In the four years it has been around, it has already managed to pop up in a myriad of parodies, satire programs, tributes, cartoon shows etc. A theme that penetrates popular culture like that, qualifies as iconic. Now we just need to give it some more time before we can see if it holds up alongside other iconic themes in film music history.
    I am extremely serious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009 edited
    Thor wrote
    It is indeed. In the four years it has been around, it has already managed to pop up in a myriad of parodies, satire programs, tributes, cartoon shows etc. A theme that penetrates popular culture like that, qualifies as iconic. Now we just need to give it some more time before we can see if it holds up alongside other iconic themes in film music history.


    Ya... just the theme. But not the rest of the score... but wait, the rest of the score is basically that same theme over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again so I guess you are right. GREAT SCORE!

    Actually, it's used in parodies because of the subject matter. GAY COWBOYS. What other gay cowboy music is out there?

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009 edited
    Thor wrote
    Now we just need to give it some more time before we can see if it holds up alongside other iconic themes in film music history.


    Who knows.

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009 edited
    Have you noticed that it's usually the inferior composers who tend to spark up the greatest (in quantity for sure, sometimes quality as well) of discussions?

    Don't get me wrong, although i realize and i've seen that this discussion here has been extended into more personal and at times valid side-issues too, and it's not strictly Santaolalla-ish all the time, still i think that from all he's written, BABEL is the strongest work as well as 21 grams, in their context. The rest is recycling of his style, and very repetitive; i don't see what differentiates a score like the Brokeback mountain from say any work by Clint Eastwood after 2000; they have the same philosophy, structure and repetitive simple main theme, with the exceptions - imo, i already noted above. I don't see why he should generated such a fuss, as a composer per se.

    It's the whole oscar thingy that sparks the flames i believe, but are we seriously giving such weight to a crappy (as it's been formed through the last years) award such as the Oscar? It's functions are purely promotional and media-driven, i am SURE you all see that and no arguments are needed to convince anyone.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009 edited
    Erik Woods wrote
    Ya... just the theme. But not the rest of the score... but wait, the rest of the score is basically that same theme over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again so I guess you are right. GREAT SCORE!


    Yes, of course it's just the theme. When people reference famous film scores in their work, it's usually just the most famous part of it - the theme.

    Actually, it's used in parodies because of the subject matter. GAY COWBOYS. What other gay cowboy music is out there?


    "Y-M-C-A"?

    No seriously, of course it's because of the subject matter of the film, but it's also because the music was so intriniscally tied to it that it makes it worth referencing. If people didn't recognize the film for which the theme was composed, there would be no point in referencing it. Same as with JAWS, STAR WARS, INDIANA JONES, OUT OF AFRICA or other such famous themes. They all have clear associations to the movie or the setting they were composed for once used outside their original context.
    I am extremely serious.
  28. Thor wrote
    franz_conrad wrote
    There's only really one theme there, and it recalls the film - and a character's state - fairly instantly for those who've seen it. Unless you're talking about contemporary public consciousness as the discriminating point.


    I do at that particular point, since we were talking about its Oscar worthiness.


    Well if public awareness isn't accolade enough, I look forward to seeing GI JOE and TRANSFORMERS 2 make your Best Picture contenders list this year. wink
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    •  
      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009 edited
    franz_conrad wrote
    Thor wrote
    franz_conrad wrote
    There's only really one theme there, and it recalls the film - and a character's state - fairly instantly for those who've seen it. Unless you're talking about contemporary public consciousness as the discriminating point.


    I do at that particular point, since we were talking about its Oscar worthiness.


    Well if public awareness isn't accolade enough, I look forward to seeing GI JOE and TRANSFORMERS 2 make your Best Picture contenders list this year. wink


    It they had held up in other departments as well, that wouldn't have been unlikely. Unfortunately, they didn't (not TRANSFORMERS 2, anyway...I haven't seen GI JOE).
    I am extremely serious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2009
    Thor wrote
    It is indeed. In the four years it has been around, it has already managed to pop up in a myriad of parodies, satire programs, tributes, cartoon shows etc. A theme that penetrates popular culture like that, qualifies as iconic. Now we just need to give it some more time before we can see if it holds up alongside other iconic themes in film music history.


    Has it really popped up that often? I vaguely remember a Brokeback Mountain parody or two but not a "myriad".

    These parodies, satire programs, tributes, cartoon shows etc crop up because of the success of the film, of course, not because of the music. But I'm sure you know that already. Oh, and I just noticed you already responded to that point.
    http://www.movie-wave.net | http://facebook.com/moviewave

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