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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    PawelStroinski wrote
    I've heard that it was Zimmer who was slated to score 1492.

    And Barry was better off not scoring for Ridley... He'd get the Goldsmith treatment. Ridley is and was after a very specific sound, Vangelis got it, Hans got it, Goldsmith could too, if you compare the original and the final main title from Alien. The final piece has the pure "Ridley Scott" sound, really.


    I am so glad Vangelis got it in the end.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    Talking of Vangelis...


    NP : ANTARCTICA - Vangelis



    cool
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    Smooth!
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  1. Demetris wrote
    He is not ripping Zimmer off. He's influenced by his older style (Zimmer doesn't write as such anymore, he's into electronica-based synth scores with little orchestral elements) and he's turned that into a very distinct and recognizable style; the one so many accuse him of repeating all the time. But i find very clever uses of melodies and hidden melodies in stuff like Brake, Rambo, Dragonball Evolution had great themes, Killing Room, etc, not to mention his older stuff like Annapolis and Children of Dune 'cause they weren't so original. You have a weird case against him man, just like the ones observed by the fanatic anti-Zimmer camp you're so against.


    The reason why is that I don't totally see why people end up getting off to his music, really. I can't agree for the utter praise he is getting all over the world for something ANYONE with decent education could do, really. There is nothing special and clever to his music. It's pure noise with no substance at all. The guy is treated like the next best thing and he has very underachieving scores for dramas and low-key thrillers (Brake was nice, but it totally slid over what ambient music can REALLY do and that after I got more into things like Brian Eno or Desiderii Marginis or even early Vangelis), The Killing Room was pretty decent. Columbus Circle is quite nice, but goes into the pitfalls of noisy action music in the long track (Exit Strategy? Exit something).

    Clever use of melodies AND Rambo in one sentence. Which melodies do you mean? His faux-anthem for the action music? The ethnic dramatic Beyond Rangoon rip-off theme? Or the totally mishandled Goldsmith material? Clever use of melodies isn't really Tyler's forte, because structurally he is more like Goldsmith, who used one thematic center for the whole score than something really clever like what John Williams tends to do or Giacchino does today (in fact there is a hilarious Tyler vs. Giacchino opposition on our Polish forum). So he took the Goldsmithian structure without Goldsmith's ferocious understanding of the movie. Here's another thing that I have against Tyler and it's ironic to me that those same arguments hurled against Zimmer, which is true for his output only in last few years and that except Inception:

    Brian Tyler does NOTHING at all to differ the movies he scores from each other. He stopped, with exceptions (you mentioned some of them - Brake, The Killing Room, but you missed out Columbus Circle, a movie which he actually produced), his fully-fledged development somewhere around Eagle Eye (my favorite Brian Tyler score, BTW). All the love for Modern Warfare 3 is so funny for me, because it is so derivative of his OWN work (especilly the aforementioned Eagle Eye) that I can't take it fully seriously. Also in that score (MW3) Tyler managed something I deemed impossible, his theme is much worse than the crap Hans wrote for part two. Yes, he did. His thematic material for MW3 is awful with the exception of the Russian Deliberations track. But, his scores sound the same and have sounded all the same for years. It's not just being self-derivative, it's just making things the lowest common denominators.

    And if you ever wondered when did my hatred for Tyler's body of work start, it was a score you are in love with, actually. AVP: Requiem. To me it's utter shite and I'd have Tyler very fired from that one after hearing a single demo. Because it has NO substance at all. It's a nicely orchestrated nothing. That's what his music is for me and, really, the man himself. I think film music would be way better off without ever appearing Brian Tyler in it.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  2. FalkirkBairn wrote
    In my opinion, saying Tyler has no melodic talent says more about the opinion-givers general dislike for Tyler as a composer regardless of the music he composes. Or they have a different definition of a melody than most other people.


    His melodies are weaker than 90% of a-list composers who have ever worked in the industry, I tried to analyze it, there are only a few Brian Tyler scores I haven't heard, I went through 99% of his output. I haven't heard only Fast and Furious 4 and his Final Destination scores.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    Pawel no amount of huge essay-like posts will save this dead-rotten argument smile Seems like he did something to you and you're getting it down to personal level, can't justify all this differently.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorLars
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012 edited
    i really like brian tylers action scores because of the very good mix of orchestra with electronics and the energy of the music. i also love his emotional themes from The Lazarus Project, Eagle Eye, The Fast And The Furious: Tokyo Drift etc.

    but i have to agree with pawel. tylers main themes (not the emotional themes) are very weak. it's not because they are simple, it's because they transport nothing. they sound all the same and they are not memorable. they are just there.

    his action music is great for what it does to me, but it's ALWAYS the same style when it comes to action. that's a fact. his MW 3 score is worse than the RCP score to MW 2. the thems in MW 2 are better and the action material (although most of it are samples) is also more varied.

    tyler is good in orchestration and in writing heart pumping action music, but not in originality, alternation and writing good main themes. most of his scores are fun to me, but in most cases they are way to long on cd.
  3. Demetris wrote
    Pawel no amount of huge essay-like posts will save this dead-rotten argument smile Seems like he did something to you and you're getting it down to personal level, can't justify all this differently.


    He didn't do anything personally wrong to me. I think he is a talentless hack who shouldn't get a job in the industry, that's all. And seeing all the love for him all over the world just drives me crazy. To me his music is dog shit struggling to smell better than what it really is. I love that Southall phrase, which was about Transformers: Prime (one of two-three cases where I didn't finish listening to an album in my whole life).
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  4. Your comments Pawel are so extreme that it seems your opinion has nothing to do with his music - for a reason only you know.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
  5. It did come from knowledge of 99% of his output and analysing it for a few reviews.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    Indeed. Although he's no Bernard Herrman or Korngold, I wish I had Tyler's talent.
  6. His what?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    His talent.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Demetris wrote
    Pawel no amount of huge essay-like posts will save this dead-rotten argument smile Seems like he did something to you and you're getting it down to personal level, can't justify all this differently.


    He didn't do anything personally wrong to me. I think he is a talentless hack who shouldn't get a job in the industry, that's all. And seeing all the love for him all over the world just drives me crazy. To me his music is dog shit struggling to smell better than what it really is. I love that Southall phrase, which was about Transformers: Prime (one of two-three cases where I didn't finish listening to an album in my whole life).


    What are you onto? shocked Your reaction only justifies my initial thoughts smile
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    Steven wrote
    His talent.


    Yeap! He's definitely a talented drummer. I've seen better though.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    Absolutely! Still, I wish I could drum like that! Looks fun to say the least. cheesy
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    Steven wrote
    Absolutely! Still, I wish I could drum like that! Looks fun to say the least. cheesy


    I can play bongos, does that count? biggrin

    Though I agree with much of what Pawel said I have to say that he was way off base calling Tyler a 'talentless hack', he most certainly isn't talentless.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  7. I just went through basically all his career with some exceptions (Six-String Samurai, Final Destination scores, the fourth Fast and Furious) and I see total ripping off of whoever is in the temp-track (from Horner through Newman to Zimmer and Goldsmith), lack of any subtlety, no thought put into actually intelligently scoring a movie (resorting to the same tricks, not fully going into potential psychological details - I haven't seen the films, but even a Tyler fanboy reviewer on my site said that both Columbus Circle and Brake could have sounded better in their particular contexts, no intellectual construct at all, just banging his way into and out of the movie), nice orchestrations, but with endlessly messy construction that may be precise in a technical sense (his proficiency in orchestral writing is very pronounced, but there is no air to breathe and his soft reflective music refers to quite tired progression and electric guitar ramblings), but is completely NOT precise in any narrative sense, inabilty to create any sense of emotional intensity changes, it's all very extreme.

    Then I get to forums and see that people are all over his material, maybe some are critical about his recent body of work. What changed? From ripping off Goldsmith he went to rip off Zimmer (not just his early anthems, Battle: LA is LARGELY a Batman Begins redux in terms of the general construct, all the ostinati are there). Tyler as a person did nothing to me, I actually exchanged messages with him after Eagle Eye and he was a very nice guy, but if film music is about people who are nice, love their job and can write for an orchestra, then sorry, I prefer the sole piano player and asshole Bernard Herrmann over him any time. The guy can't write a decent theme if his ass depended on it (yes, I know I am quoting Alfred Newman's assessment of Herrmann here), he can't play with the intensity of the music, but constantly bangs at the highest possible, can't actually intelligently use his homages and references, proven by his total misunderstanding of the Goldsmith material in Rambo (pity I didn't write my review of the score AFTER I intimately analyzed the Goldsmith scores about a year ago). And he is heralded as one of the biggest talents in the industry. No, he is not one of the biggest talents in the industry. He is a hack who is a nice guy and his only redeeming quality except his character and orchestrations is that he looks pretty.

    So yes. I think that film music would be much better without Brian Tyler being a part of this beautiful genre of music.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  8. PawelStroinski wrote
    It did come from knowledge of 99% of his output and analysing it for a few reviews.

    And, I suppose, it all boils down to being your opinion. Which is fine. But I strongly disagree with it. And the 'discussion' reaches it's natural conclusion.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
  9. PawelStroinski wrote
    I just went through basically all his career with some exceptions (Six-String Samurai, Final Destination scores, the fourth Fast and Furious) and I see total ripping off of whoever is in the temp-track (from Horner through Newman to Zimmer and Goldsmith), lack of any subtlety, no thought put into actually intelligently scoring a movie (resorting to the same tricks, not fully going into potential psychological details - I haven't seen the films, but even a Tyler fanboy reviewer on my site said that both Columbus Circle and Brake could have sounded better in their particular contexts, no intellectual construct at all, just banging his way into and out of the movie), nice orchestrations, but with endlessly messy construction that may be precise in a technical sense (his proficiency in orchestral writing is very pronounced, but there is no air to breathe and his soft reflective music refers to quite tired progression and electric guitar ramblings), but is completely NOT precise in any narrative sense, inabilty to create any sense of emotional intensity changes, it's all very extreme.

    Then I get to forums and see that people are all over his material, maybe some are critical about his recent body of work. What changed? From ripping off Goldsmith he went to rip off Zimmer (not just his early anthems, Battle: LA is LARGELY a Batman Begins redux in terms of the general construct, all the ostinati are there). Tyler as a person did nothing to me, I actually exchanged messages with him after Eagle Eye and he was a very nice guy, but if film music is about people who are nice, love their job and can write for an orchestra, then sorry, I prefer the sole piano player and asshole Bernard Herrmann over him any time. The guy can't write a decent theme if his ass depended on it (yes, I know I am quoting Alfred Newman's assessment of Herrmann here), he can't play with the intensity of the music, but constantly bangs at the highest possible, can't actually intelligently use his homages and references, proven by his total misunderstanding of the Goldsmith material in Rambo (pity I didn't write my review of the score AFTER I intimately analyzed the Goldsmith scores about a year ago). And he is heralded as one of the biggest talents in the industry. No, he is not one of the biggest talents in the industry. He is a hack who is a nice guy and his only redeeming quality except his character and orchestrations is that he looks pretty.

    Way too much to even bother reading.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
  10. Oh and to my assessments of being talentless. Would anyone say that Ramin Djawadi has talent? Well, what if I told them Djawadi, like Tyler, actually does have formal musical education? Does it change anything?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012 edited
    This whole notion of Tyler not having any talent is utterly ridiculous. I personally don't like a lot of his music and he's far from being a good melodist but he's not devoid of talent. And that's a fact!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    Where's the maintitles "like" button wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012 edited
    I don't think anyone, and i mean it, ANYONE working in film music worldwide is there without talent and without working their asses off to get where they are, each in his area. That we like their work or is a wholly different and completely irrelevant matter. A personal opinion and our own exclusive view.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  11. Yeah, but can we then also say that Ramin Djawadi (whose Medal of Honor theme beats any melody Tyler EVER wrote in his life), Steve Jablonsky, the general lot of RCP haven't got any talent? What is the difference between Tyler and the general RCP sound? That it's more orchestral? Something else?

    Composers are getting trashed and Tyler is given as an example against them. Why? What's the damn difference between Ramin Djawadi and Brian Tyler? Djawadi uses far more subtle harmonic choices than Tyler does and that's not because he has no knowledge of harmony, the guy is a formally educated (USC or UCLA, that's where Badelt found him and hired as his assistant) composer!
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    Who said Djawadi or Jablonsky don't have talents? Or anyone else for the matter? Read my above post. And it's not a matter who's best than the 'x' composer etc, that's totally fanboyish and irrelevant as a debate. Everyone is there for a reason and because obviously they are good at what they do whether you or me or anyone else likes it or not.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  12. Demetris wrote
    I don't think anyone, and i mean it, ANYONE working in film music worldwide is there without talent and without working their asses off to get where they are, each in his area. That we like their work or is a wholly different and completely irrelevant matter. A personal opinion and our own exclusive view.


    That's not the general opinion, D. A lot of people and I mean A LOT of people are calling Hans Zimmer a talentless hack. Why, because he uses ghostwriters? Who doesn't? I have on good authority that an RCP guy is regularly writting additionals for Tyler (I can give a name - Matthew Margeson) since Rambo. So does Elfman actually (also RCP names and Deborah Lurie).

    Look at the reviews he's usually getting. Look especially at Clemmensen, who's totally ridiculous. What makes a composer good or bad really?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012 edited
    And because some douche calls your favorite composer (and his camp) talentless hacks you have to fall on their level and call exactly the same someone else? It's pathetic. Stop it my friend. End of discussion of my part... beer
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
    NP : THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS - John Barry



    Brilliant Bond score, one of the very best!
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  13. Did you know the "Hawaii 5-0" theme had lyrics?


    I'm listen to, at this very moment, the syndicated national radio show Handel on the Law and an older-sounding lady named Hermine (my guess at spelling) says she wrote lyrics for the theme (which I guess were never used in the show, as I never recall hearing it) and just found out not too long ago it's been recorded and been a big seller overseas, but she never got paid for it.

    She said the lyrics were owned by EMI, and that Columbia owned the music.

    The name of the the song, according ot her, is: "Hawaii 5-0 Theme - You Can Count on Me"

    She specifically says Sammy Davis sings a version using her lyrics, so I went hunting and found it:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn06KJNbVEs


    You can hunt around, various stations play it at different times, and many reply the show on Sunday's, too -- so you can still get to hear it.
    The views and opinions of Ford A. Thaxton are his own and do not necessarily reflect the ones of ANYONE else.