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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2017 edited
    @Pawel.

    1. I'm not quite sure where you're getting this. I don't think he even mentions Williams in this section. Why do you think he's comparing Zimmer to Williams and saying that Williams comes out on top?

    5. Again, I'm not sure where you're getting that it's comparing Zimmer to anyone. That section of the book, like I said, is an overview of the future of neoclassicism. Also, I think you may be bringing your personal distaste for (the ridiculous) Clemmensen into this. Certainly most people will bring up Zimmer's 'simplicity' as a negative trait, but I don't think it is has to be anything more than a style. I'm not Zimmer's biggest fan and don't much like his recent scores, but noting an aspect of Zimmer's style isn't the same as criticizing it. To say that something is derogatory because it reminds you of something else you read doesn't make sense. I think King Arthur has some of the most simplistic themes ever, but I love listening to it!

    7. Well I disagree with you on Beyond Rangoon being anything like low-key. It's melodramatic to the extreme. Think of the opening of the 2009 Star Trek where the ship is crashing in the battle and Giacchino plays this slow, gorgeous love theme instead of epic action music. I rarely see things like that from Zimmer. He tends to play exactly what's happening. That to me is why Audissino correctly describes him as "very direct".
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2017 edited
    Aidabaida wrote
    7. Well I disagree with you on Beyond Rangoon being anything like low-key. It's melodramatic to the extreme. Think of the opening of the 2009 Star Trek where the ship is crashing in the battle and Giacchino plays this slow, gorgeous love theme instead of epic action music. I rarely see things like that from Zimmer. He tends to play exactly what's happening. That to me is why Audissino correctly describes him as "very direct".


    I know this might set off a new "in general" versus "specific" thing again, but I was immediately reminded of that Injection moment in M:I-2. And then there's basically the whole of Thin Red Line. I think the bottom line is, Zimmer is very well capable of going against what is happening on screen, if the film calls for it. He may not have always come across these opportunities in the entertainment films he's done, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about the man himself.
  1. It's his general preference. Somewhere in the early 90s Hans noticed that if he scored "directly to picture", he lacks the technical background to do so and he might even got the orchestrations wrong at times (Walker might have a huge impact on his early scores, but at the end of the day, there ARE awkward orchestration choices in his earlier stuff, Bird on a Wire sounds just bad at times, even if it has the Danny Elfman orchestration team, including Steve Bartek). So he wrote big thematic arcs over the event, sometimes ignoring obvious synchronization points and that's when he really started to click.

    If we look at the love theme against destruction. There is a dramatic elegy-over-massacre technique he employed from The Thin Red Line (banalizing the score for the sake of discussion right now, if you want more, look up my article on the score featured on this site), The Last Samurai and Tears of the Sun. Da Vinci Code doesn't really have bona fide action music, with the closest thing being a Herrmannesque string cue. Going back, what would you say about a Mahler pastiche underscoring a scene where a character is fed his own brain in Hannibal?

    I still stand by Beyond Rangoon being low-key with some notable exceptions like track 5 and the last one. Something like Memories of the Dead plays very somber in the film and doesn't give out a "scream" over the flashback of a character finding her dead family which is delivered in a high angle wide shot to emphasize the emotions. The music is just... sad. Same from Our Ways Will Part. Except this being an example of going against the picture, with the beginning of the cue being a series of static shots where the character musters up to cut some bamboo if I remember correctly, the visuals are kinda "very calm" (the film itself is surprisingly static, probably aided by the fact that Boorman was already an older filmmaker capable of a somehow stoic style). And contrary to the visuals, Hans goes in the character's mind to emphasize how she gains a desperate energy to survive in the scene. It may initially feel a bit jarring in the film, but that's the risk you take when you try going against the very visuals.

    The book is generally about Williams, isn't it? So thinking of the future, he resolves to describing Hans Zimmer with a series of blanket statements and not really bringing any evidence for that? And yes, I have a disdain for Clemmensen's bias against not just Zimmer but for anything that doesn't follow the John Williams formula. And I have disdain for mistaking criticizing the with criticizing the work, which mistake he seems to have mastered.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2017
    And I have disdain for mistaking criticizing the with criticizing the work, which mistake he seems to have mastered.

    Before I respond to this post, I need to know what you were trying to say here. biggrin
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  2. Whenever Clemmensen disagrees with a composer (this also "hit" other composers) he tends to attack the man rather personally than attack the work itself. It's a bit like "if you don't write the music the way I like, then you are an idiot". Horner got a lot of flak, e.g., for his approach to Patriot Games and "Gaelic Thunderheart" aside (that's simplifying the score, but not without merit), there's at least one scene where Horner builds an overall arc for something that unfolds on a couple of levels. In other words, for a sequence that uses parallel editing to show a few assassination attempts (trying to kill the main character and, in a separate attempt, his family), Horner focuses on building continuity and the revelation that it's all one plot. Because of that (and it's a technique that later became a Christopher Nolan staple!), Clemmensen essentially considers to be an example of an unintelligent (!) approach.

    See, the fact that each dream level in Inception doesn't have a separate sound makes Hans Zimmer a complete idiot in his eyes.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2017 edited
    So I'm confused on why you're bringing Clemmensen into this. I agree that he's as stubborn ideologue, but just because Audissino says something that reminds you of Clemmensen doesn't mean one agrees with the other... If we're debating the validity of a description, could we stick with that description?
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  3. In what I said before I said that Clemmensen and Audissino seem to agree that lack of leitmotivic structure equals lack of intellect. That's how I understood his point and it's something I would disagree with vehemently even if Clemmensen didn't state it.

    My point is that such one-sided view is unfair and untrue.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2017
    Well, I agree with you on that point, but I don't think Audissino meant that.

    On the point of Zimmer's music being direct, do you view it is a criticism to say that?
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  4. Simplification of something quite complex and in case of some scores potential criticism. But generally speaking, no, just a blanket statement that simplifies the composer's output.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2017 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Simplification of something quite complex and in case of some scores potential criticism. But generally speaking, no, just a blanket statement that simplifies the composer's output.


    But isn't that the point of paragraph-summaries? A simplification?
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  5. If it borders on falsifying, then no. Paragraph-summaries aren't supposed to be blanket statements. Thor has a more nuanced academic analysis of the paragraph than I do (and he made it in a summary form soon after you posted that quote). The reason why I'm not going in that direction as much as I could is that I'm a bit tired of being very academic.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  6. PawelStroinski wrote
    I'm a bit tired of being very academic.

    Aidabaida, you're pretty new here, so I doubt you will realize what an achievement this is. shocked
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2017 edited
    Captain Future wrote
    I can't take Clemmensen's Zimmer related reviews serious any more. I respect the man's competence otherwise but here he is riding his hobby horse. (? Er gibt dem Affen Zucker.) It's clearly part of his marketing strategy.

    Volker


    I think Clemmensen's secretly longs for Zimmer's swashendicken
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorCaliburn
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2017
    Before I leave to Tenerife for some awesome concerts (but also sun and beer) here is my review of Dunkirk

    https://soundtrackworld.com/2017/09/dun … ns-zimmer/
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2017 edited
    It took a while, but there's finally word on the soundtrack for Blade Runner 2049. Label is Epic Records, and it will be out on 6 October (digital) and a limited edition (2049 copies) 2-disc physical release on 20th October. I couldn't help myself and immediately ordered it, without seeing any track listing, but I really, really hope they won't drop the ball on this one like they did disastrously with IT, i.e., with lots of short tracks. Please give this a proper listening experience with long tracks, people!

    You can pre-order your copy here:
    https://bladerunner2049.shop.musictoday.com/store/
  7. I probably would have ordered this in days gone by. But now, without having heard anything of the actual music? No.

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2017
    First reviews (the guardian, etc) use the word 'noise' wink so there
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2017
    OH and surprise: "sound design" , again. It's on fb filtracks group smile
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2017
    Well, Vangelis' original score is pretty sound designy in the first place, so that isn't necessarily a bad thing for this particular film.
    I am extremely serious.
  8. Wallfisch's music editor on It said about the project:

    "Remember who the director is".

    It might be essentially Zimmer and Wallfisch filtering the atmospheric Jóhannsson sounds by means of Vangelisian soundscape, which Hans has downright internalized.

    I'm pretty much sure that this will be as acquired taste as Dunkirk was. Maybe not as much due to them referencing the actual Vangelis material.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2017
    Dunkirk was of what taste now? wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2017 edited
    At the same time Empire says Benjamin Wallfisch and Hans Zimmer "faithfully channel Vangelis", but those are not the quotes that get shared because it doesn't get that negative speculation with which people love to bash a score they haven't heard yet. Fuck that negativity people, let's wait till you actually know what you're talking about.
  9. I love Johannsson's work, so if it's essentially Jóhannsson-Villeneuve score as channeled by the Vangelis sound and the Zimmer sense of rhythm, it may be better than expected.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2017
    I am pretty sure they tossed Johannsson's work entirely. Read the director interview and you'll realise it. No hope to hear any Johannssonn in this, and it's not a matter of negativity. Of course we'll listen and tell at the end smile
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2017
    Perhaps Jóhannsson's work appears in another work later on (á la Alex North and 2001/DRAGONSLAYER)?
    I am extremely serious.
  10. Demetris wrote
    I am pretty sure they tossed Johannsson's work entirely. Read the director interview and you'll realise it. No hope to hear any Johannssonn in this, and it's not a matter of negativity. Of course we'll listen and tell at the end smile


    I'm not talking about Johannsson being retained. I'm talking about the specific type of scoring approach Jóhannssón used in his Villeneuve score. So that kind of atmospheric playing though performed by vintage synths (they did say they used the original equipment Vangelis did, so there'll be some Yamaha CS-90 in play probably!).
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2017
    we will see smile
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  11. The reviews and It's music editor Filmtracks post "Remember who the director is" does imply that. And Zimmer/Wallfisch did use the original Vangelis thematic material and equipment. It's cautiously spotted, too.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2017 edited
    The track listing for the soundtrack got released today:

    1. ”2049” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    2. “Sapper’s Tree” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    3. “Flight to LAPD” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    4. “Summer Wind” – Frank Sinatra
    5. “Rain” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    6. “Wallace” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    7. ”Memory” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    8. “Mesa” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    9. ”Orphanage” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    10. “Furnace” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    11. “Someone Lived This” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    12. ”Joi” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    13. “Pilot” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    14. ”Suspicious Minds” – Elvis Presley
    15. “Can’t Help Falling In Love” – Elvis Presley
    16. “One For My Baby (And One More For The Road)” - Frank Sinatra
    17. ”Hijack” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    18. “That’s Why We Believe” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    19. “Her Eyes Were Green” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    20. “Sea Wall” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    21. “All The Best Memories Are Hers” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    22. “Tears In Rain” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    23. “Blade Runner” – Hans Zimmer & Benjamin Wallfisch
    24. “Almost Human” - Lauren Daigle

    First relief: It's devised as a 1-disc listening experience, which would mean in the case of the limited edition 2-disc release, the second disc would be additional material.
    Second relief: It's a manageable amount of tracks, which means it could still have lengthy track and is at least nog the 40+ number of tracks hell that most albums seem to be plagued with.

    Doubts: Tracks bij Sinatra and Elvis Presley in between? I'm sure they function within the film, but songs usually break the mood of the album. Especially in a work like Blade Runner. I will most likely edit them out right away.

    And then there's the original song at the end... hmm. Did not expect to see Blade Runner end with a song.

    By the way, Zimmer during the live Facebook event:

    "Both Benjamin and I were cautious for this to be nothing like our previous project. I did Dunkirk before and I wanted this to be nothing like it. To be as far removed from Dunkirk as possible."
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2017
    so blade runner is out on spotify today...nobody listened yet? smile
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.