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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2017 edited
    Aidabaida wrote
    I finished a book called Gormenghast, a spectacular piece of literature. My copy came with several analytical essays at the end, some of them rather lengthy and technical. What I enjoyed, however, was that every single one of the essays supported their assertions with ample quotations from the text. Rather than simply state, "Every time Fuschia and Steerpike meet, an atmosphere of death hangs about them", they actually demonstrated how each one of Fuschia and Steerpike's meetings actually contained scenery descriptions with a strong theme of death not found elsewhere.


    Well, that's the basic of all academic analysis.

    I suppose what I'm looking for is not shallow analysis (or only surface level analysis), but analysis clearly based on facts. Which is what irked me about your review of Covenant. Extrapolating so much based only on the name of a poem seemed tenuous at best.


    OK, I see we're back to being confrontational. You're pretty good at that. My 'extrapolation' of the poem's name and use in the film is not tenous. It's a pretty obvious reference, both the name and -- more importantly -- the actual CONTENT of the poem. It's also very much in line with one of the film's major themes. Or are you suggesting it's just some random poem that they inserted into the picture?

    (incidentally, there are really no facts in interpretative film analysis. Only observations).
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2017 edited
    Thor wrote
    OK, I see we're back to being confrontational. You're pretty good at that. My 'extrapolation' of the poem's name and use in the film is not tenous. It's a pretty obvious reference, both the name and -- more importantly -- the actual CONTENT of the poem. It's also very much in line with one of the film's major themes. Or are you suggesting it's just some random poem that they inserted into the picture?

    (incidentally, there are really no facts in interpretative film analysis. Only observations).


    I was more speaking about the connection to Exodus: Gods and Kings that you extrapolated...that seemed tenuous to me. Did you not see back where I agreed that the insertion of the references was purposeful? I personally believe that they distracted from the mood of the movie, but I don't deny they had a purpose.

    Also, saying that there are no facts in interpretative film analysis right after agreeing with me that the basis of all academic analysis is supporting observations with evidence seems...odd. Maybe I'm not getting your point. What to you is the difference between 'facts' and 'observations'? Its a fact that David quotes Ozymandias, maybe you would call it an 'observation' that Ozymandias is the Greek name of a different character from a different Ridley Scott movie? That's how I would define it, and like I said, I'd prefer that observation be founded on further evidence than the title of the poem...
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  1. I'd agree that relating it to a former film in the director's oeuvre that has nothing to do with that universe can be a bit far-fetched. I haven't seen either film, but considering they all have separate writers and Ridley not seeming to be the most literate directors on the planet, I'd say that it might have been an accident.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2017 edited
    Aidabaida wrote
    I was more speaking about the connection to Exodus: Gods and Kings that you extrapolated...that seemed tenuous to me.


    Well yes, the reference to Scott's previous film might be tenous (hence the question mark in the article), but the reference to the source material/biblical character is obviously not. Also -- and this is pure speculation, of course -- I think it's likely Scott had Ramesses II in mind after having made that film and done a lot of research on him. So I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the reasons why they landed on Shelley's poem in the first place; that they saw some kind of link there. Or not. Would be interesting to know at some point.

    Also, saying that there are no facts in interpretative film analysis right after agreeing with me that the basis of all academic analysis is supporting observations with evidence seems...odd.


    I think you misunderstood my point, or I misunderstood yours. I was talking more about conclusions; i.e. where you end up after having made a find of some kind. These are usually observations or interpretations, not facts.

    That's how I would define it, and like I said, I'd prefer that observation be founded on further evidence than the title of the poem...


    Which I did. The name is just the starting point. Sometimes, that's enough (like the mirroring of Biblical David). Other times, it's worth digging further. In the case of the Shelley poem, there is commenting going on in a) the title (the Ozymandias-Ramesses II-David link), b) the poem's actual content (the self-deluded strive for divine perfection) and c) its use (David omitting the warning signs of the last part).

    More interesting than the poem, though (I think we've pretty much covered the bases on that by now), is objects and visual elements underlining these themes in the film.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2017 edited
    Oh, and the use of the Wagner music has similar referential depth as the Shelley poem. Perhaps even more so. Geezes, this film is so full of beautiful layers, I get deliciously "lost". Even now, after having seen it 6 times!
    I am extremely serious.
  2. The thing is that you assume here that the poem's inclusion was Scott's idea not the writer's. Sure, he approved of it in the script, but I think generally considering the creative process, especially of a tentpole Hollywood film, is rather that he didn't reject the idea rather than actively demanded it to be there.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  3. Hell, come to think of it, Fassbender might have ad-libbed that bit even.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  4. Gormenghast by Mervyn Peake is fantastic. Be sure to see the BBC adaptation. Great score by Richard Rodney Bennett.

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2017
    Loved Covenant the movie. hated the score.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  5. I basically enjoyed Covenant, don't get me wrong. I'll revisit it in a while.

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2017 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Hell, come to think of it, Fassbender might have ad-libbed that bit even.


    It's OK to not overanalyze things, Pawel. I share that notion. But be sure also not to UNDERESTIMATE things that appear as an obvious reference; in this case a particular poem inserted for actual thematic PURPOSE. Whether it was Ridley Scott's idea or the writers. Or none of them, but it still turned up having significance.

    Incidentally, the words also appear on a plaque outside the ruins/dome, so Fassbender didn't ad-lib them.
    I am extremely serious.
  6. Still could. And perhaps even moreso because they appeared on the plaque (dependant on the shooting schedule). Actors, especially great ones, are good at pushing the thematic envelope like that.

    There are two things when it comes to the general aspects of this discussion. First is that you seem to actually credit everything to the directors, which could be true in case of Michael Mann (not just because he's often the sole writer of his films, but also because he's obsessively immersed in researching minute details of a story, which doesn't always translate well into great filmmaking, e.g. Blackhat). Sure they approve everything, but I wouldn't exactly say that the writer has thematically nothing to say.

    Everything you say may actually come from the writing itself. As I said, in case of the original Alien, all the Freudian stuff (definitely explored on purpose by the writers themselves, especially that Freud was really "obligatory reading" for intellectuals and even people that wanted to pass as being intellectual even in 1970s) was already written in. Giger pushed that forward, so it was only natural for the corridors and stuff just continuing what was already designed on paper.

    I mean, there has to be a line when things become really superflous. It's great to have that kind of intellectual fun, but there has to be a line.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2017 edited
    Oh, definitely. There are a number of people responsible for how the film turns out in the end -- from writers to composers. But ultimately, since the director is the creative "boss" of a project (especially an auteur like Scott, with so many trademark themes and visuals), it makes sense to give credit where credit is due in this type of discussion. For example, I do credit cinematographer Dariusz Wolski for a lot of the lighting in ALIEN: COVENANT, but they are based on Scott's ideas; ideas that have run through his entire filmography and different cinematographers (lights flickering through moving sources, light through smoke etc.).
    I am extremely serious.
  7. When it comes to visuals I give almost every possible credit to Ridley Scott myself, that's true. Perhaps the most influence a cinematographer had on a Ridley film was Slawomir Idziak adding a green tint to Black Hawk Down. But when it comes to writing... the only serious thing he admitted to doing script-wise was keeping the donkey in Black Hawk Down and his very angry notes on Gladiator which the documentary film shows. Oh, and making Blade Runner an urban film rather than an "apartment piece". He does give credit to the Blade Runner for a lot of the noir elements Blade Runner had. So Ridley actually credits Jordan Chenoweth for the very Ridley idea of light going through window blinds, for example.

    Writing-wise... knowing that he does have a history with quite bad scripts impairing the overall quality of his films (Hannibal downright hurts sometimes and even turns out quite uninspired after they leave Florence... right until the infamous dinner scene where Scott downright relishes in the absurdity of the overall situation), I'd say that he generally accepts a lot of stuff as is. Unless it interferes with the visuals.

    Like the goat in Black Hawk Down which was once taken out of the script for budgetary reasons to which his note was "I miss the goat". They got it back in. Turns out the whole scene is built around the walking goat as a major spatial reference.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2017 edited
    Ridley is not a writer, true. But he's an "idea's man", meaning that he's able to transform more or less literal scripts and infuse them with great audiovisual ideas that aren't there to begin with. If you've read the Paul Sammon biography, you'll find that although he often appears intellectual and is able to deconstruct the story and subtext of his movies (in interviews, commentaries and so on), his actual mode of filmmaking is more intuitive and visceral.
    I am extremely serious.
  8. I actually notice the intuitive and visceral sense in his commentary. Ridley uses quite simple language there. He does deconstruct the subtext and story (as the directors usually direct the subtext anyway, not exactly the surface). In fact the way he describes things is much simpler than our discussion right here. It's an argument I had with a friend over the "shot through the glass" scene in Blade Runner and the transparent dress Zhora's wearing in the scene. Was it intended? Yes, it was completely intended. Was Ridley already aware why he wants it that way? My claim? No, he wasn't. He saw the idea there or drew it and if you asked him (at least at the time) why should she look this way, it would be "because she fucking looks great". And that'd be as far as he'd go on the set and maybe in post-production.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  9. Come to think of it, perhaps the most "openly" intellectual director of the lot we're discussing would be Mann as he really gets down to some of his choices in his commentaries (if he's not bragging about his research), so it's quite good insight.

    Spielberg's even more visceral than Ridley I think in his approach. Especially that since Jaws he makes a point in allowing lots of improvisation with Saving Private Ryan and Munich being done without storyboards. Improvising the visuals of something like Normandy on the set is quite staggering to do.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  10. Watched the first 2 episodes of Star Trek: Discovery and I wasn't particularly impressed by the show nor the music (by Jeff Russo).

    It's difficult placing a new show such as this in a timeline that's before a much older show (Star Trek: TOS) but they could have at least have made some sort of effort as a nod to the original show (there was a meagre nod in the form of using some of the original show's sound effects).

    But, the look of this new show seems to be a mix of The Next Generation and J.J. Abrams' Star Trek universe. Everything was so dark, and placed against dark backgrounds, the dialogue - when you could hear it - was poor and none of the characters were particularly likeable. And what have they done with the Klingons?

    I didn't find much to like. Except that, on Netflix, there's no ads. Meaning that the 'hour-long' show was only 40 minutes long.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2017
    I’m in Blade Runner 2049, it’s intermission, and it’s awesome.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2017
    Intermission?
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2017
    He's actually using the intermission to update US rather than Facebook or Twitter or Snapchat! love
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  11. Thor wrote
    Intermission?


    Those annoying 15-20 minutes in between two parts of a film that I NEVER use to go to the toilet, get a beverage or leave my seat. More importantly, it breaks up the flow of the film (if the film has one).
    "considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G.
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeOct 6th 2017
    I'm just surprised there was one for BLADE RUNNER. There was none at my screening (OK, it was a press screening, but still), and none planned for any of the Norwegian screenings otherwise.
    I am extremely serious.
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      CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
    • CommentTimeOct 6th 2017 edited
    Ever since the Blade Runner sequel had been announced, I was dreading it.

    It could never work, could it?

    Well...

    Blade Runner 2049 is spectacular.

    It's not an action movie, but a detective story, like the original.

    It's slow. Very slow. Which gives its images the space to breath.

    It has everything you want from a Blade Runner sequel and adds much, much more to it.

    It's a collection of MASSIVE paintings, presented in a MASSIVE sound arena.

    The score uses the original's colour scheme, but is so much darker and more depressing than its predecessor and thus fits the movie immensely well.

    I was lucky to be in a movie theatre where they pumped up the volume so much that you get completely overwhelmed by this wall of depressing sound.

    I listened to the score before seeing the movie yesterday, and didn't think much of it, but during the movie, presented as it was, with this massive images and massive sound set, it was absolutely BREATHTAKING.

    Easily a 10/10 movie, and a worthy sequel.
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      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeOct 6th 2017 edited
    Thor wrote
    I'm just surprised there was one for BLADE RUNNER. There was none at my screening (OK, it was a press screening, but still), and none planned for any of the Norwegian screenings otherwise.


    It depends here if the theatre designates it as a “long film”, in which case they can charge an extra fee and schedule in an intermission of, in this case, 10 minutes after which people had acquired annoying doses of popcorn. Also, they took quite a bad moment for an intermission.
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2017
    Airplane

    This is the funniest film ever made, and not by a small margin. Genius.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2017
    Southall wrote
    Airplane

    This is the funniest film ever made, and not by a small margin. Genius.


    It's up there, a consistently funny film. Airplane II though nowhere near to the first film is not too bad either.

    For me no film beats Dumb & Dumber for consistent laughs and I'm not much of a Jim Carrey fan.
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
  12. Did anyone here ever see that 1998 Soldier film that is apparently connected to Blade Runner?

    Volker
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
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      CommentAuthorAidabaida
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2017
    Blade Runner (The First One)

    My first viewing of this. I'd heard about how it was a visionary science fiction movie, how it explored A.I., but no one told me just how creepy and oppressive the movie was, the dark, disturbing, haunted atmosphere. I loved it, with the exception of Vangelis's score. Aside from the saxophone, I felt it really detracted from the mood.
    Bach's music is heartless and robotic.
  13. Do you dig electronic music at all? No problem, if you don't of course. I'm just curious. I myself love electronica and Vangelis is one of my heroes. smile
    PS: I often wondered how this film would have fared with a noir-coloured orchestral score. Not that I would want to miss Vangelis' score for anything in the world.
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.